1890

It has nothing do with a moral high ground. It’s a stupid question. It’s like there are conversations going on but people are choosing not to listen. Being harassed and threatened as a woman in the gaming community is not rare.

1891

The issue with buying games in a store is there never is any sales on. You get full price or preowned.

When I worked in retail 60% of our income came from products on promotion. We used to sell vitmains at half price and people would stock up and sales when full price were virtually zero. So the company decided to scrap the sale of them, problem was sales at full price didnt go up at all and there were no sales at half price either. 3 months that policy lasted.

Comparing digital to store is not an apples to apples comparison any longer.

1892

The recent ‘troubles’ seemed to me more like a race to the bottom than trying to reach some high ground. But it might have felt like the high ground was reached for some after pressing the ‘post’ button.

I would think that most people who play games do it because they think the games are fun (or they just want to ‘finish it so they can uninstall’) and not because they hate a particular race, gender or orientation (but they might do that too).

It seems that the discussions around the recent troubles get more complicated since there are so many different agendas/issues/wishes all mixed into the same discussion/thread.
These discussions get amplified (sometimes by too much) by some members of the gaming press; some communities (or individuals that participate in them) feel that this is unjust (or they have other reasons) and they provide a reaction; the reaction is covered by the media; the reaction gets commented on by the media, individuals and communities; this prompts a response; in a near endless loop.

Meanwhile, Google Analytic and other services might show a increase in readership/hits on the articles/posts (or maybe not? Would be very interesting to see these numbers) and more (or less) ad-revenue is created. Which isn’t saying that this is a big conspiracy, just that businesses that rely on viewer hits have to somehow attract hits and when a discussion gets a (stupid) hashtag these sites might feel inclined to cover it so as to attract readers – and thus earn money – just as these sites would cover many other subjects that are “current” (warranted or otherwise).

@Nesrie:
There are people coming from either sexes that might be (or feel) harassed/threatened in almost any community there are, including some that “only” exist on the internet.
Harassment/Threats (perceived or real) isn’t solely restricted to ‘gaming’ or ‘gaming communities’ (of which there are many).
And I am sure that most people would like to see it didn’t occur (be it in written form or otherwise).

An individual, or a group of individuals that may or may not share certain affiliations to a community, that is/are harassing another individual, or a group of individuals, are in general not a representation of one or more of the communities they may be connected to. Additionally; a (perceived) lack of reaction (or stance) from other members in these communities does not mean that they are condoning any ‘unwarranted’ behavior or that they themselves are liable to act the same way. In cases where it comes down to “hearsay” (I.e. when they are reading about it instead of experiencing it as a bystander) I think it is even harder to have a proper response; and even if you are a bystander - for example at a Press Gathering (as was one example I can recall reading about) - it is hard to have a proper response if you do not know the people involved or if they (victim/perpetrator or maybe friends) act/react (through upbringing/experiences/societal norms) act/react in a way that does not give you the necessary information to give a proper response.

1893

That’s really the point, though. It’s not “as a woman,” it’s as a person. Harassment and threats are not a unique punishment thought up by Men to inflict upon Women. Anyone who has a public persona is a target.

1894

SuperBunnyhop weighs in, possibly containing what might this time actually be a Real Journalist™.

1895

Really? So you’ve filed police reports I assume? Also, given that you’ve participated in pretty hateful, melodramatic activities yourself, your statement doesn’t seem very credible. Perhaps you can provide a link to where you’ve been harassed as a woman simply for existing.

1896

Indeed. People who do tech support can share endless such stories. Anyone who posts online or has played a multiplayer video game deals with harassment and threats.

We have a toxicity problem, one that Nesrie herself has contributed to in the past.

1897

In #gamergate news:

One of the first adopters of the tag, a lovely Brietbart reporter, blew the story wide open by calling the iFred organization that Zoe said she would donate half of her Depression Quest proceeds to. It turns out, they had never received any donations from “depressionquest”!

#gamergate suddenly exploded, finally solid proof that Zoe was corrupt! The SJWs are all a bunch of charlatans! A victory for the new games journalism!

Then Zoe came out and showed emails that she did, indeed, donate money to the organization. Typical Zoe showboating and attention whoring!

In response, #gamergate started their OWN campaign to donate money to the organization that Zoe donated to. A-ha! Within 24 hours, we’ve raised more than Zoe ever raised!

Now there are a bunch of #gamergate tweets mocking Zoe about how useless she is when it comes to raising money for charity.

That’s right, the very people who bully others to the point where they might actually need the volunteer services provided by iFred are they themselves donating to it.

All the while this movement whose apparent sole purpose is to eradicate corruption and collusion in the games journalism industry hasn’t once mentioned the fact that Gamespot and IGN have both produced special segments shilling products for both EA and Activision that feature Gamespot and IGN reviewers in the past few months.

There is absolutely no question about what #gamergate is. It’s a group of assholes whose sole purpose is to bully women under the cover of saying that they want to fix games journalism.

1898

Uh huh. They’re probably racists too.

1899

In further news, now the #gamergate people are harassing the iFred organization on Facebook:

They can’t decide whether to hate-fund it or report it for being corrupt…

Maybe they can get this horrible, corrupt, liberal SJW organization shut down for good, just like Acorn!

EDIT: Now they are demanding that the money they donated be returned by iFred. Holy shit these people have absolutely no shame:

1900

So maybe I’m misreading things, but on the past couple pages of this thread it appears that we have a good summary of the situation:

  1. Some claiming that the whole “gamers are over” line of articles is horrible because they personally identify as gamers, and anyone who plays games should be considered “gamers”, therefore any articles generalizing the term or criticizing the term for representing a bad element (even if a minority) is a terrible idea.

  2. In response to an NPD survey saying that 37% of people play games, people feel the need to clarify who really are the “gamers” and who shouldn’t be considered a “gamer” because all they play is <mobile games / The Sims / whatever>

Basically, the same thing I’ve seen happening in games for decades.

-“Games are art! But don’t you dare criticize my games like art!”
-“Don’t denigrate gamers! Everyone who plays games is a gamer! Except those people over there!”
-“This isn’t about feminism, it’s about ethics! Except for those big sites covering those big AAA games over there, it’s obviously better to focus on tiny indie developers releasing games for free! But it’s definitely not about women, even though nearly all of our targets are women despite how proportionally smaller a population they make up in the game developing space!”

The whole GamerGate thing just seems like the same children I used to post with on message boards when I was barely a teenager either having been replaced by new children, or they’re same people who never actually grew up. They want to be in their own exclusive club, want people outside the club to know how important their club is, but how dare anyone actually try to critically analyze the club, and don’t you even think about considering yourself a part of the club unless you can prove yourself to be worthy in <arbitrary ways>.

1901

Gamergate seems to be split between those who simply want to fuck with Zoe Quinn anyway they can and those who are actually looking for something better from video game media. This latter subgroup seems kind of confused because it includes all sorts, ranging from the ‘objective review’ idiots to people who think the hashtag is a good place for conversation and debate. That’s how I’m reconciling flyingj’s take with stuff like this at least.

If we’re looking at it as a competition (and many are) I think the anti-gate have done a good job of seizing on the ignorance of a lot of gamergaters but seriously need to sort themselves out re: notyourshield. Few too many people (usually white males themselves) trying to call out white male sockpuppets to be met with black/asian and/or female frowns.

1902

I am a biracial woman as well Brad. Do you want proof that I’ve experienced racism too? I am sorry you had horrible experience, but you’ve not cornered the market on this problem. Women have been talking about the problem they face while participating and making games for years. That you’re still asking questions if it exists just proves you don’t listen, or you don’t want to hear. It’s not a new problem, and yes, if you have a mic and are a woman, and you try to use it while participating in some games, you’re going to encounter horrific problems. Even without a mic, some games and some communities in specific genres for online games are pretty hostile. You can get angry at me all you want, try to tell me that a biracial woman in this country couldn’t possible have encountered sexism or racism without providing you some sort of written proof, but that’s not going to change the toxicity level we’re talking about here. It exists.

And i am going to call you out on one thing her Brad, don’t you dare try and place me with the people that threatened your life. I never called you, sent you e-mails or implied that I would ever cross a line. You keep bringing your piece up in this despite being asked not to do so, by others not me, but your behavior was not a shining example of a gentleman back then so stop acting like it was.

1903

Brad Wardell, victim blaming.

Ugh. No Brad, just stop.

(And yes, automatically distrusting statements because they don’t agree with your worldview is absolutely victim blaming.)

1904

One could say the exact same thing with you talking about ‘misogyny’ LMN8R. Should really watch those stones in that glass house of yours.

1905

I knew that eventually, this discussion would get personal. Sigh.

1906

You’ll have to specifically write out exactly what you’re trying to imply, because your vague attempt at implication is instead just appearing to be a false equivalence.

1907

You are no better, piling in just because of who, the point being made that saying you are harassed just because you are a woman will seem a little off key to put it politely to all those harassed that aren’t women.

The reality is Woman are a target for all the things that are listed but they aren’t the only ones even if it is or may be worse in general for women against how many men are targeted. But making your point as if that’s the only thing is a tad off base really.

The points above also show exactly some of the issues as people pile on just because of who rather than what and everyone wants their point to be relevant so ignoring or sidelining others becomes the norm and rational behavior disappears just so someones POV is supported.

You also get your view doesn’t count because you did this or that in the past and so on. Really it makes loads of people look really childish but we don’t let any of that get in the way of keyboard warriors and internet drama eh.

1908

The thing is, it’s NOT equal. Go make a twitter account with a manly man name and a manly man picture and then tweet something in defense of Sarkeesian or whatever. Then do the same thing with an obviously girl name and a girl portrait. You will receive heaps more abuse, and more threats.

Same with in a game. Go play a Call of Duty, with a name that sounds like a girl, and use a voice mod to sound like a woman. Then go play the game as a guy. Which one do you think is going to suffer more abuse, namecalling, catcalling, etc? (hell, if you’re too lazy, don’t bother with the voice mod, you’ll still get abuse)

EDIT: Also Brad, you have an amazing talent for making this thread about you.

1909

Well thank you. Seeing some of the people who, it seems like yesterday, were attacking and harassing on this very site are able to miraculously turn around and be shocked, shocked that others do what they do is quite a sight to see.

The thing is, it’s NOT equal. Go make a twitter account with a manly man name and a manly man picture and then tweet something in defense of Sarkeesian or whatever. Then do the same thing with an obviously girl name and a girl portrait. You will receive heaps more abuse, and more threats.

Then PROVE it. Go and make a Twitter account and write the exact same statement using the #gamergate tag. You’ve thrown down the gauntlet. Go for it. I’m genuinely interested in the results.