Oh, I remember the discussion!
I guess I couldn’t figure it out because I thought it must have had something to do with Riot. Thank you very much.
So, what is the next step? Obviously, there are a lot of strong opinions, and as much as I would like to see people’s minds change, I just don’t see that happening.
I mean, I would like to.
Edit: I would like to point out, that there are strong opinions on both sides, that doesn’t mean both are equal in merritt. I think a big problem is that a lot of people equate having a strong opinion as having a valid opinion.
I have lots of strong opinions on things but sometimes they are just wrong. I have strong opinions about my wife’s MLM, but so far, they haven’t been justified in the slightest. I have strong opinions about how horrible Mint Chocolate Icecream is (which I think has merritt) and about how best to tackle poverty.
jsnell
2100
But he wasn’t doing that. The original thing Granath wrote was:
It is quite sad when you get this type of indefensible culture in any company in any industry when sympathy for such actions is eroded because others like Jessica Price try to abuse that narrative to cover for their own personal mistakes.The real issues tend to get lost in the noise and the general gaming community just rolls their eyes and thinks “here we go again”.
He called it an “indefensible [company] culture” and a “real issue”. How the hell is that “excusing Riot”? (It was trying to use Riot as a cudgel on the old Price discussion, which is obviously dodgy. But as far as I can literally nobody here is arguing in favor of the Riot corporate culture, nor claiming that the reporting is incorrect).
Was his argument then, that if women complain too much, society in general won’t believe them?
Why bring her up at all though? It’s seems like a tangent.
There’s a reason that I make a habit of wikipedia-linking implicature in these sorts of conversations.
RickH
2103
(1) It doesn’t appear to be personally directed at one guy (no idea who desupoto is or who may be offering him pizza)
(2) It wasn’t framed as an identity-based grievance or as lashing out at someone because of their immutable characteristics
(3) It wasn’t as hostile and included no profanity (“please!” and “Shut your mouth” versus “rando asshat” who was insulting someone with a “fucking DECADE” of experience)
(4) No threat of being “instablocked” for another infraction, no claim of invaded privacy or inappropriate engagement (“this is my feed. I’m not on the clock here”)
(5) No condescending follow-up post about “hurt manfeels” and “not your emotional courtesan” with a side of “Don’t expect me to pretend to like you.”
It’s also that the social media mob is an effective, but imprecise weapon. It doesn’t always hurt the people you want to and it sometimes hurts the people you don’t want to.
Also, I think fighting game culture is used to a bit more trash talk from their devs.
Excellent points. I don’t the two are that similar. I don’t think Price should have been fired, but I do think she was in the wrong.
It’s not an easy industry for women and generally, I think we need to give them the benefit of the doubt.
I think that is true in a lot of fields.
Nesrie
2107
What she was was rude. She may have been wrong with her assumptions, but she wasn’t especially nice, and women are not required to be nice all the time. We’re allowed to be rude, and men, representing their companies, engaging with fans, you don’t have to go moire than a handful of social media accounts in to find a guy being rude to someone; they’re not fired for it.
I’m not disagreeing with you and in a perfect world, either she wouldn’t have such justified anger, or her employer would treat her with more respect and understanding, and less of a disposable commodity (which seems to happen more often to women than men).
I grew up in the Netherlands, were workers rights are a bit stronger, and whose work culture is predicated on the Polder Model
The Dutch polder model is characterised by the tri-partite cooperation between employers’ organisations such as VNO-NCW, labour unions such as the Federation Dutch Labour Movement, and the government. These talks are embodied in the Social-Economic Council (Dutch: Sociaal-Economische Raad , SER). The SER serves as the central forum to discuss labour issues and has a long tradition of consensus, often defusing labour conflicts and avoiding strikes. Similar models are in use in Finland, namely Comprehensive Income Policy Agreement and universal validity of collective labour agreements.
The current Dutch polder model is said to have begun with the Wassenaar Accords of 1982, when unions, employers, and government decided on a comprehensive plan to revitalise the economy involving shorter working times and less pay on the one hand, and more employment on the other. This polder model, combined with a neoliberal economic policy of privatisation and budget cuts has been held to be responsible for the Dutch economic miracle of the late 1990s.[4]
We all know that when Japanese game producers use boorish behavior it’s simply an amusing quirk of the culture!
RickH
2110
Ha, that never would have occurred to me. Maybe so.
Granath
2111
If you think for one minute that anyone in a reasonable corporate culture would not be fired for calling a customer a bigot then you are sorely mistaken. Reputable companies do not work that way. Most employees in professional organizations could not call out a customer for being a racist in a public manner and get away with it even if it were true. Calling a customer one for with no justification is beyond the pale and an offense that often results in termination. In this case she was held to the same standard as any other employee. Equality is good, is it not?
If you prefer to debate the assertion that “so long as people keep white knighting false claims those who truly need help are going to be lost in the noise”, I will be more than happy to take that to P&R with you. But that is simply human nature and today’s media cycle.
Back to the regularly scheduled program already in progress. It looks like IGN is trying to make amends.
RickH
2112
Ten years ago, I’d agree, but I wonder if this is 100% true anymore. I’d bet you can get away with it in the coastal media companies.
Yeah, Price acted like a deranged lunatic. No competent management team could keep her around after that - the only question was whether you fire her with cause or you take a more charitable approach and give her some severance pay.
But what the fuck did that have to do with Riot? You and others keep trying to muddy the waters but bring them up together, and I still don’t know why.
Nesrie
2115
I see people, employees, from gaming companies all the time talk individuals in ways I would never accept and would not be acceptable i most industries. I don’t why think she’s unique in that situation, well aside from her sex.
Then again, if Riot games were not in gaming, there would probably be a long list of lawsuits coming out of their but… here we are.
I know, but I keep hoping there is more to it. Like, why do they care so much? What is their vested interest in mudding the water? How do they benefit?
No, the streamer was being a piece of shit, talking down to a professional and then played the victim card when he was called out on his shitty attitude.
CraigM
2119
That’s one way to look at it. Certainly the most uncharitable reading of his actions. From what I saw, and let’s be clear I know nothing about this streamer or the game aside from the precipitating tweets.
And nothing he said struck me as condescending or otherwise ‘talking down to a professional’. Now if you want to talk about how on social media a professional game designer/ writer/ whatever gets more than their fair share of unwarranted and in asked for critiques of their work, I will wholeheartedly agree. However posting about your approach to certain design situations on Twitter and having someone return with a relevant perspective on what they as a player experience in that situation strikes me as legitimate. It is what the platform is for. And if you don’t want any replies or back and forth on that topic… write a blog post.
So, yeah, it’s completely possible I missed some act of the streamer being a jerk here. That their comments went beyond the pale. But I haven’t seen that. And, quite frankly, I don’t give a shit about that specific situation. Not about the steamer and not about GW 2. Price’s reaction struck me as out of line. Understandable and human, certainly. I have no desire to demonize her here, in fact I can empathize with just how hard it can be to have the constant barrage. Given how pervasive toxic behavior can be in the gaming community I’m surprised it doesn’t happen more.
