There was another person that was fired here that we all seem to agree was canned even more unjustly than Price. He seems to have no problems keeping low and moving on.

Another dev took a shot at him and he responded. He’s not as clear of a target but we had a conversation about what is a joke and what is not a joke because of this. Did you, maybe, miss that? Punch up not… down.

I went back to where I first read this, Eurogamer’s coverage, and re-read the part about Fries’ role in this:

The discussion spread wider and people waded in from all sides. Peter Fries - the other writer fired by ArenaNet - jumped in at this point. His tweet has since been removed but a cached version was saved.

Fries, in response to someone complaining Price was “playing the gender card”, said: “Here’s a bit of insight that I legitimately hope he reflects on: she never asked for his feedback. These are our private social media accounts - imagine you’re an astronomer and you start sharing some things you’ve learned in the last few months since you began a research project observing Saturn, only to have observation techniques explained to you by a layman.”

Later, he added: “Today is a national holiday. It is our day off, after working hard for months on our most recent content release. If I’m being embarrassing and unprofessional, it’s because I’m enjoying a beverage in the sun in my backyard and this nonsense is being directed at someone I respect. Jessica is great at her job and deserves to be treated with respect, was the gist of what I was reacting to.”

Emphasis mine. Everyone’s focusing on his coming to her defense, but there’s certainly enough here that I understand why ArenaNet might have a problem with what he’s saying. His twitter account isn’t private. It’s personal, but he used it to engage with a discussion about his work and his coworkers and his customers, and basically admits that he may be behaving unprofessionally.

Now I still can’t tell you whether ArenaNet’s response was too severe, because as far as I know he hasn’t given any info on how his termination went down. Maybe they said “lol you’re fired, peace out”, or maybe they said “Look, your heart was in the right place defending Price, but your responses were unprofessional, we’d like you to remove them or apologize” and he stuck to his guns. Who knows?

I just think it’s a little more reasonable that ArenaNet would’ve had problems with his tweets than some of the narrative makes it sound.

This wouldn’t be a problem if we still had unions and union reps who could stand up for people.

No. I didn’t miss it. I’m saying that he is doing the right thing for the most part, especially since we all mostly agree that he really got boned here. He got fired and he’s not complaining to sites about how AreaNet screwed him over by misrepresenting their hiring criteria. In contrast, Price is more than willing to tell everyone her perspective.

You don’t even know what he’s been asked and frankly you don’t really know how the media is approaching Price either. You’re attributing a lot of praise and a lot of grief based on almost nothing to both of them. This isn’t really a minor issue. This plays right into the bigger conversation about Social Media and employees, except this time the person who was fired did not going on a racist, Nazis laced tirade. This is a pretty ordinary, not crazy person, emotional stuff here.

I don’t have to know how the media approaches her. Journalist questions don’t need to be answered. She can give a “no comment” or a less vague “I value my experience at ArenaNet and know they will do amazing things without me. While I regret how this incident turned out, I will continue to stand up for feminism and gender equality in the industry. I look forward to the next phase of my journey.” Instead, she’s redirecting blame to how ArenaNet hired her. While she may have a good point about being misled in her interview, it doesn’t matter now. They’re not taking her back, and in the meanwhile she’s poisoning the well for her next job.

Yeah, I didn’t think there was anything at all sexist in what Deroir tweeted. I think she was ready to take any criticism from a fan as a sexist slam. I didn’t even think what he wrote was real criticism, either, just a different opinion he was interested in discussing.

Oh. My bad. You’re expecting perfection, got it. Totally reasonable.

Perfection? I guess doing what you can to not make things worse is perfection now?

Okay.

The best I can offer is an oblique reference to the idea of “It’s not my job to explain that to you” type discourse.

Hang with me for a sec. I promise, I’ll try to refrain from declaring anyone to the right of Bernie Sanders deserves to be imprisoned for a whole post! And I’ll even kick this one off by saying that, on the whole, from what I’ve read about this particular situation, Price isn’t a hill I’m gonna die on, in particular.

Okay, so, stuff:

Minorities get treated like shit a lot. Not by everyone, not all the time, but a lot. Black people get profiled by police, mistreated by service workers, viewed with unveiled suspicion and fear in their own neighborhoods. Women get catcalled relentlessly, pressured into sex by selfish partners, and passed over at work on the regular. And so on and so forth ad infinitum.

It’s fucking exhausting. I mean it’s infuriating, and depressing, and soul-crushing, and unfathomable, but most of all, it’s exhausting having to be wary, every second, every day, because elements of the world and portions of the populace all around you have it out for you, actively and passively, all because of one of your immutable traits. And even the people who don’t have it out for you usually won’t even stick up for you in front of the people who do, so when that cop pulls you over for no reason, his ridealong buddy doesn’t say shit, and when that guy in the pickup whistles at you on the street, the fifteen other people walking nearby don’t say shit.

So, you’re isolated, afraid, and hurt. You live on the defensive. You might go hours or days or weeks without feeling like anyone’s got your back or your best interests at heart. Your life’s harder than it would be if you weren’t black or a woman or whatever.

And now, now it’s coming at you in a new venue. People are “talking about” this stuff all the time! America’s getting woke, y’all! Which seems great, right? This shit’s finally gonna stop now that everyone can clearly see it, right? Exhaustion over!

But not so fast. Regressive hate-fueled shitheels are pissed about that and staking their claim and pushing their agenda and doing everything they can to maintain the status quo of keeping you down. And some of them really are just dumbfuck hillbillies who can’t help but just say “Fuck the blacks, women are for having babies not opinions, all the queers gonna burn in hell.” But a big chunk of em are just aware enough to realize they can’t say that shit out loud, no matter how much they might hold it in their hearts. Those are the scary ones. Those are the dangerous ones. Cuz they’ve got just enough patience and self-awareness to realize that they can win this war by other means.

And then you’ve got this whole other big chunk of the populace who just can’t imagine it’s that bad all the time forever. These people mean well! They certainly don’t have that kind of pure, black hatred burning in their hearts. I mean, they’re not racist/sexist/bigoted! And none of their friends are! And we had a black president! And a woman won the popular vote for president! Gay people can get married! Things are getting so much better! Surely it can’t be that bad, can it?

Which is a really easy thing to say, if you don’t have to live that exhausting, hellish experience 24/7/365. If you haven’t lived your whole life being demeaned, looked down upon, mistreated, talked down to, disrespected, passed over, and ignored. What are they so upset about, anyway? We beat racism and sexism in the 60s! We marched over bridges and burned our bras! Everything’s okay now! Why are you still fighting, anyway?

And, here’s the kicker: the outright, furious-burning bigots love that messaging. Oh, oh yes, everything is fine now. There’s no need for more activism and social justice! The world is just great the way it is, you see! In fact, isn’t it a little uppity of those blacks and women to keep talking about it like there’s some big problem to solve when we can all clearly see everything is fine? How obnoxious! They’re shitting up our forum threads and twitter feeds and Facebook walls with all these calls to action and complaints and furious overreactions, and they’re marching and blocking highways and making demands, and gosh, didn’t you hear about those antifa over in Europe?

It’s such an easy narrative to buy into if you don’t live that exhaustion day in, day out. Sure, okay, Donald Trump said some pretty gross things about women and wound up becoming president. But, I mean, that’s just Republicans voting Republican and Hillary being like, the worst candidate ever! I mean, not all women are horrible nags, but she was pretty bossy, huh? And sure, we’ve got footage of cops beating black people for no reason and planting weapons and drugs on them and admitting on camera it’s all because they’re black, but I mean, c’mon! They can vote and marry white people and own houses, and all the good schools let them into college when they don’t even get good scores like my white kid did! We can’t swing too far in the other direction now that racism is basically dead except a couple of cops on Youtube! And didn’t it look like that thuggish kid was reaching for his pocket anyway? And why was he trying to sell water in a neighborhood! I wouldn’t want youths loitering around my neighborhood like that! C’mon, let’s all be reasonable here!

It’s insidious. It creeps in. You almost can’t help it, because the annoyances and fears and pains and difficulties you and the people close to you face are so much more real to your primitive monkey-brain than the struggles you can never see or experience that others are laboring under, because empathy is really goddamned hard, y’all. It’s fucking work. It means listening to someone say that the world you exist in every single day and are sure of the certainty of is a lie and that you are missing the truth.

And so, here in this new woke world, the conversations spin around, guided by insidious forces of hatred who know how to use the tools of propaganda to make themselves look reasonable and intellectual and dispassionate and logical and calm. And they spin around and swirl around the truth that minorities tell us about every day, desperate for someone to finally listen to them. And they spin around this “divisive” climate where civility is dead and everyone is just so angry all the time, on social media where trolls and bots shape the conversation and likes and shares amplify voices with no regard to truth or substance and anyone can insulate themselves from any opinion that’s hard or scary or disagreeable.

And so it all gets muddled, and people do genuinely wonder how it can possibly be that bad, and they don’t feel like they’ve got the tools to figure it out for themselves, and their own experience is coming into direct opposition to what these people are saying is real, and that’s confusing and scary and worrying and maybe even a little guilt-inducing, because shit, if things really are that bad and I’ve not been doing every single thing in my power to fix it this whole time, that’s on me a little, isn’t it? But I’m a good person! I’m not one of those crazy racist hillbillies! No, no, this can’t be right. I gotta check.

And meaning perfectly well, they go to what’s obviously the best source here: those same minorities. The folks who’ve been screaming to high heaven about how bad it is, desperate for anyone to listen! Well gosh, here I am, and I will totally listen: please explain to me exactly all the ways that you are oppressed and be willing to explain away all of my doubts and be ready to explain away all my ignorance on this subject. In short, please relive the exhausting, soul-crushing hell that is your everyday experience one more time to save me the time and effort of educating myself.

Except the active, malicious racists and sexists and bigots haven’t been quiet, and they haven’t satisfied themselves just spewing their hate into their 4chans and their Breitbarts and their Fox News. No, no, they’ve gotta go out there and fight the people they hate and challenge them and keep them down where they should be. And so they dox women on the internet and threaten to rape and kill them and they comb the life of every single black kid who gets beat up by cops in search of anything to make him look like he “deserved it.” And so they insidious tactics of debate in bad faith to lord themselves over their “inferiors” with their cool dispassionate logic and their statistics-that-are-evidently-devoid-from-lies-or-bias, and they pick apart the statements of their foes line by line, word by word, to “reveal” their inadequacies and therefore “win” the debate.

And it’s constant on places like twitter and forums and reddit. The Gamergate hate brigade is incredibly large and well organized. The alt-right is recruting new members left and right. You almost can’t turn sideways on the net as a minority without having some bigoted shitheel leaping into your comments section to belittle and demean you and tear you apart and keep you down. Just like in real life, it is constant, and it is exhausting.

And you try to fight on, and you try to do the right thing, and you try to be the bigger person, and you try to prove your case, and you try to fight for what’s true. Day after day after day after day, you wage that war as it sears away your patience and your kindness and your hope and exhausts you.

And eventually, you get tired of arguing perfectly and you get tired of being the better person and most of all you get tired of fighting fair, because the bigots are using every insidious, unfair, propaganda-derived tactic available to them to discredit and destroy you and it never ever stops. Reddit admins refuse to try to police “hate speech” and ban the guy asking them to. Twitter won’t ban Trump while he actively destroys our alliances online but they’ll ban your feminist group’s account because you called an asshole out for what he was. People demand you debate the white supremacist loony as though his ideas have merit because civility trumps everything in these discussions, don’t it?

And finally one person too many comes up and makes a demand of your time that you can’t can’t accept, challenges your truth and your experience one more time than you can handle, asks if things really are that bad one time too many. You snap, you lose your temper, you act irrationally, you get “triggered.”

And the bigoted trolls who’ve been camped on the sideline, rubbing their hands with sinister delight, shout with pride as “another leftist SJW cuck shows themselves for what they really are: the real problem with America!” “Look how mean and unreasonable and demanding they are!” “Look at these terrible things they said about someone who just wanted to have an open discussion with them!”

And you know what? For all the shitty, actual, obvious, literal bigots and trolls you’ve fought off and ignored and calmly discussed shit with up to this point, for all the times that the evidence of what you were saying was writ plain for everyone to see, for all the times you did every single thing right, the one time you didn’t, that–that’s when everyone finally pays attention. How can you be credible if you’re so angry? Why don’t you want to just tell me about this, I was only asking a question! God, why are you always so uptight and mad all the time?!

Nobody is perfect. But someone who has been worn down, ground down, pushed down over and over again and exhausted beyond measure by the neverending war they have to fight just to be treated like a goddamn human being is expected to be if they want anyone to believe them.

So, I mean, yeah, this one dude on twitter might well have totally meant well and had no beef with Price because of her gender and no agenda to pursue but a genuine love for this game and a desire to see it succeed and a frustration that it wasn’t all he wanted it to be.

But for better or for worse, it’s not really about that one guy. It’s not really about that one exchange. It’s not really about this one slip-up on Price’s part, no matter how egregious or undeserved.

It’s about the larger war. The one that most of us can’t even see and will never be affected by. The one being waged against people like Price every single minute of every single day, invisible and insidious.

That is the context of this action. That’s the battle that ANet stepped into the middle of. And that’s why those of us on the progressive end of things who can recognize that Price slipped up and pushed too far and struck out at the wrong target still try to have this discussion. Because she can’t anymore. Her voice has been tarnished and discredited.

Cuz, y’know, whispers the darker parts of the internet. She’s just one of them bitchy feminists on twitter now. Can’t even be professional. Tsk, tsk. Well, anyone who listened to her would have known that was coming. It always does.

That’s how they win the PR war. That’s how they recruit people to their side. That’s how they break their opposition down and destroy them.

It’s a war of attrition. It’s a war of exhaustion.

/sees the size of that post.

Well, I have to agree with the last part!

It’s also probably worth noting that reply did morph over time into a reply to a larger portion of the discussion involving a lot more than just the chunk of text I quoted from @WhollySchmidt, lest he think I’ve been waiting the better part of a decade to unleash hell upon him :)

You’ve done a great job—seriously—of explaining the difficult position someone like Price is in. I sympathize (you know, to the extent I’m able, which feels like it should be an unnecessary disclaimer, but I mean it earnestly).

And so I fall back to this. So if you’d like to frame this in a larger context as a win for the bad guys, I don’t have grounds or desire to argue against that. A systemic, exhausting, campaign of harassment against people in her position has succeeded by setting her up to fail, pushing her to lash out.

But she still made a mistake, she’s still responsible for it. So I understand why ArenaNet held her accountable, though I don’t know if the level of their response was appropriate. It’s not a stretch to imagine a scenario in which it was, but I just don’t know.

Edit: I do think it will reflect poorly on her if she continues to ignore the possibility that she made a mistake in judgement. So I was surprised that’s the angle she’s taking in the Polygon interview, but maybe it’s still too recent and she’s still working through her reaction. I don’t think she owes us a notification when/if she reconsiders her response, but if in the coming days/weeks/months she maintains she did nothing wrong, that’s going to erode my goodwill toward her further the longer it goes on.

If only she had all these guys around to explain to her where she went wrong.

First, I love ya man! Second, the downside of that kind of reasoning can be that one becomes complicit in something else bad by thinking only of the historical sin. Its a little bit like giving awful dictators in 3rd world countries a pass because of the sins of colonialism you know? There is a point where someone is responsible for their actions as individuals.

Happily the victim here (the gamer she abused) seems fine and just wants to get back to his life, but imagine for a sec how that poor guy feels? He engaged in good faith was abused by someone in a position of power within his community THEN has had to deal with her getting fired and having his his social media history scoured for evidence he is a GamerGater (he isnt, obviously) he will no longer ever be treated the same within that community. That is really unfair of her to stain his character like that and STILL refuse to apologize to the guy and let that unjustified whiff of sexism hang around him. I think she is behaving very poorly.

Price remans unapologetic.

“I was given no opportunity to argue my case,” Price told Polygon. "[Studio co-founder and president Mike O’Brien] spent some time insisting that developers must be friends with the company’s customers, and that it was unacceptable to say that we aren’t, even when we’re not on the clock. He told me I’d look back and regret this, because we were doing great work and I’d ruined it.

“The whole thing was highly unprofessional. There was zero reason for him to be there. He wanted to vent his anger, and he had the power to command a woman to stand there while he took his feelings out on her, so he did. Then he walked out, [the manager] got my stuff from my desk and the HR person asked for my key card.”

The comment section is not finding her attitude commendable.

Yeah man, that’s what we’ve been talking about all morning!

Please do not further contribute to the thread until you’ve read Armando’s eight-page analysis :)

True, but were there quotes from Price herself? Didn’t see any.

And I’m no more likely to read all of that than I am to read all of John Galt’s “A is A” speech.

I’m just giving you a hard time. Today we’ve mostly been discussing the Polygon interview Eurogamer was referencing. I did include a small portion of her response in one of my earlier posts.