“Kids are shown how to ape gang behavior by MTV and the Gap.”
This is from page three of RepoMan’s article.
Neither of your comparisons works because neither the 40th percentile nor the median income people are joining gangs. We have to look at the LOWEST percentile to make a case that very poor people are looking to join gangs. Then we have to figure out what to compare. Are they upset at the richest people? The median? The mean?
Nice chart though. I think it will prove useful if we can figure out what to compare. But I’m probably in the 40th percentile and I hardly feel disenfranchised or like I should join a gang. Also, how would the people involved KNOW that the ratio has changed slightly. What I mean is the feeling of helplessness is probably more important than the actual disparity. How would we measure that feeling?
These are sincere questions. I’m not trying to argue.
You can be in a gang with me Robert. You figure out how to do graffitti and I’ll come up with the gang signs. How’s green as a color work for you? Red and blue are taken I think.
Repo, I think you didn’t read the article. I did, and no one in that article says that videogames are to blame. There is a short blurb about rappers and wangstas, but the consensus throughout seems to be that it is a feeling of powerlessness, a history of sexual abuse, and economic hopelessness that allows these gangs to operate, and that this particular gang culture is on the way out, because it cannot sustain itself in the face of the highly organized Mexican Mafia.
The fucking Gap?
Once you fall into the Gap, shit gets real.
Well, what happened when Prohibition was repealed? From what I know you still had plenty of gangs and the mafia, but they fell way down in power and membership.
Maybe the gangbangers are just as opportunistic as Al Capone and the moonshine runners were, filling the gaps in supply and demand. But, I don’t think both groups had the same level of hopelessness and dispare.
Then again, intragang violence is far more prominent in the media than violence against the average person, so maybe the gang cultures are as they always have been.
I’m just talking out of my arse, of course. Just putting this out there for discussion.
Pffft.
How about stagnant wages, increasing prices, increasing rates of home foreclosures, through the roof income for people like fund managers, much more regressive taxation (e.g. Warren Buffets million dollar prize for a CEO who has a secretary that pays a higher tax rate), vastly reduced corporate tax rate, rampant lack of job security, cuts in public services that hit poor and middle class people but not rich, amazing insurance costs that are definitely regressive, most all new jobs are low end none-tradable service jobs, the list goes on.
This era is often touted as the new Gilded Age, and for good reason. Don’t forget that much of the money wealthy people accrue isn’t salary – i.e. Jason’s link vastly underestimates the wealth and actual income disparity.
For a change, why don’t you prove your point – that after all these tax cuts et al. the rich aren’t any richer, and that gains from recent productivity increases are shared equally by all? IMHO the status quo is so vastly different from what you suggest that you own the burden of proof.
Here’s a novel concept. Everyone gets their data, and then we have a fight to the death with it.
What are you talking about? First, the only claim I made is that I don’t buy the idea that income disparity explains the rise in gang activities. So for you to say things are so vastly different from what I suggest makes no sense. I didn’t suggest anything. I asked for some evidence. I got that evidence. Now I’m trying to figure out what it means. I’m not sure what you are accusing me of here, but I didn’t offer a counter explanation. Second, what does ‘for a change’ mean? Are you saying I always make this claim? Because I don’t think I’ve ever said anything like this before. What pattern are you insinuating in my posts here?
The claim was that income disparities cause (or contribute to?) increased gang activities. I said I don’t buy it. Now, what do I need to prove? That the claim is wrong? That’s like asking an atheist to prove that God doesn’t exist. What would count for such a proof? How about I offer an alternative explanation. Ok, I’ll choose Repo’s. Cultural changes led to this, and economic disparities are only a small part of that, since the minorities that are in gangs were as poor, if not worse, back in the 50s and 60s, than they are now. They had fewer rights, were segregated, etc. There was violence, but it was in the form of riots, etc., not gangs per se.
Right now, a certain subset of our society glorifies gang activity. Just look at the lyrics to certain songs, the clothing worn, the us vs. them attitude of the people following this lifestyle, etc. No, this isn’t limited to blacks or hispanics either. It’s a cultural issue. It also isn’t limited to the extreme poor or those who are economically impoverished. It’s a cultural issue among certain members of the youth of this country.
And we’re arguing over burden of proof? If you have evidence that it’s all caused by a wealth gap, give it. Mike did, and I appreciate it. Now let’s see if those numbers can give us a causal explanation of sort. If it does, we can give it as a contributing factor. But I doubt it’s the only factor, just as I doubt Repo’s explanation is the only factor. Nothing is ever that simple.
Are you around the 40th percentile, Brian? Because if you aren’t, you can’t be in my gang. If you are, I think green would be cool. We could bang for the environment.
Hey Jasper…
Links or I call bullshit?
Well, I’m not sure myself that income disparity itself is a major factor with gangs. However, it seemed as though you didn’t believe income disparity has increased, so, uh, numbers to the rescue!
I think changes in the economy do contribute to gang recruitment though. “Back in the day”, you could get factory job even if you had no relevant education or skills. Technological improvementa and cheap labor overseas have really dried up the prospects there. You could still get a low-end service job, but the people with the temperment to join a street gang probably wouldn’t get along very well dealing with the public. Besides, those jobs are low-pay, frustrating and don’t get you any respect.
Also, I suspect ideals have shifted a bit. If you believe that you’re a failure unless you make it big, then grinding away at a low-skill job seems pointless and maybe a high-risk, high-reward path will make you your millions.
Clearly the shitty economy is having an effect.
My neighborhood has graffiti starting to go up all over it, and as anyone will tell you, that’s a precursor to violence.
And hey, guess what? Our crime rate is starting to rise.
The fact is the income disparity, lack of opportunity for the poor, and disintegrating infrastructure are creating the same toxic stew that led to the violence problems in the 70s and 80s.
I always tell people who don’t get it to go and watch “Back to the Future”. That shitty, dirty, town square with the broken clocktower and the porno theater? That was the idealized Hollywood version of America in the mid 80s.
Enjoy!
That was my fault. I combined two thoughts too closely in the same post. I didn’t believe the gap was the major reason for the increase, and I hadn’t seen anyone back up the claim that the wealth gap had increased. So I wanted to see numbers to back up the assumption BEHIND the causal claim. Thanks for providing them. My google is weak.
Obviously I can only speak for myself, but I don’t think I would have spent fourteen months living in an abandoned tenement and cooking meth if I hadn’t seen Mischa Barton crip-walking in that ad for prison fit ultra loose fashion denims. It seems ridiculous now, but you have to remember this was back before all that season three bullshit on The O.C.
First, you have to define what it is about selling drugs that makes it so lucrative. Selling drugs is easy, highly profitable, and low risk. No other crime offers the same combination.
What happens after drugs are decriminalized and they hit the market in a legitimate fashion is that all of the gangs, all of the members of organized crime, all of the members of the cartels, they’re suddenly out of work.
They have a choice between trying to get a real job, or continue in a life of crime.
And it’s at this point that things break down initially. There will be a crime spree. It’s hard to argue that there won’t be. But the thing about all of the other highly profitable crimes is that they are high risk crimes. Robbery has victims. There are witnesses. There is evidence. And although it’s going to wreak havoc on our police forces initially, they’ll have the extra manpower in the form of all those now-available ex-narcotics officers.
We’ll have a lot of people being sent to prison, which would normally be scary due to the prison overflow, but since we’ll likely be paroling all of the non-violent drug offenders, we’ll have plenty of extra capacity.
You decriminalize drugs, yeah, there’s probably a multi-year spike in almost every other crime on the books. But once the dust settles, there won’t be the draw of easy money to be had from slanging dope, there won’t be the gangs roaming the streets, creating all kinds of problems for civilians and law enforcement, and there won’t be the residual crime that the drug trade brings with it.
There was a great article in the Economist about the economics of being a gang-banger. Turns out, for hours worked, the average gang member earn less than McDonalds workers. They just see the very, very few at the top doing really well and apire to that lifestyle. Thing is, they’re also very, very likely to end up dead trying.
I’ve often felt these communities and people need locals who are inspirational and aspirational. How do you show a smart kid in the ghetto that he could get a degree, go work in, say, Microsoft, earn some stock options and live in a nice house and own a boat. Would this seem anything but laughable? But it is a possibility. The right smarts, scholarship and hard work and I reckon one thing you can say about America is, the American Dream is doable…
Anyway…
Except that you live in a neighbourhood that is by most definitions a warzone, go to a shitty school with poor equipment, worse teachers and a prevailing culture that will likely persecute you for even trying to learn. Maybe somehow you make it out of that by some miracle, but the odds are stacked against you.