Geryk HATES NWN, mean guy

I actually agree with his article! The complaing about the story that is. Less talking more bashing!

http://gamespot.com/gamespot/features/all/gamespotting/071202/p8_01.html

BTW, its not a review… just a Geryk rant. And didn’t Eiesenstein do the montage theory? like knife, baby, person crying thing? (the poll on GS)

Also, heres some funny posts from VE about it.

http://www.ve3d.com/comments.taf?postID=29424

What the hell is Geryk going to med school for… he should be a poor good writer, not some snobby rich boring doctor. :lol:

etc

nothing satisfies everyone… :?

but to some extend, i agree too, nwn has too much text to read… for those hardcore ‘story’ gamers its nice, seems to provide a lot of ‘depth’… it also makes the original story module not very mp friendly…

oh well

It’s not the length of the story but the presentation. Having two little characters stand together while you click on a dialog tree and read snippet after snippet tends to remove any sense of the dramatic from the experience.

Warcraft III does it much better. They use the game engine to generate in-game cinematics, shrink to a letterbox look, pan the camera for a more cinematic feel, and just present the story moments to the player without asking the player to select a dialog tree. The player’s passive and receptive and just watches.

Story is a means to an end - the end being to pull the player into the game, to allow a player to become immersed or “lost” in the world of the game. When you forget that and allow the story itself to become the goal, rather than the immersion, you end up with tedius dialog click-fests, poor pacing, etc.

Geryk has it all wrong. He should stop reading books in the real world - then the books in the game would seem exciting and new. He is obviously not a hardcore gamer. I have not only given up books, but magazines as well, all to enhance my in game reading experience.

Chet

In my opinion, something about NWN’s overall presentation felt off. Even when I knew where I was I felt sorta lost. Hard to describe the feeling. I just know I didn’t feel that way in BG2, PT, or IWD.

Speaking of, IWD2 SOON! WOOO!

>I have not only given up books, but magazines as well, all to enhance my in game reading experience.

I hope playgirl and cracked can survive this blow to their circulation.

Bruce is entitled to his own opinion, of course.

But when he said this:

“I know others disagree, but I now officially can’t stand story in games. As in, any story. If I wanted to read a bad story about a faerie princess and her elf paladin boyfriend, I’d play that console game where the 8-year-olds save the world in their magic flying ships.”

He immediately made everything he will ever say about games from now on totally irrelevant to me. Not liking NWN is fine, and comparing it do Dialbo 2 is apples and oranges, but he can go right ahead if he wants. But when he makes a blanket statement about hating any story in a game and then the absurd generalization about console RPGs, I think it’s safe for me to say he’s obviously looking for completely different entertainment than I am.

So now whenever I read a Geryk review or column or whatever, I’ll just completely dismiss it. His opinions are valid; they just plainly don’t apply to me.

“I read a message board post once about Dungeon Siege, where the poster said he wished he could just walk by some location in the general area of a quest, and he’d be credited with the quest being complete. I don’t know if he was joking or not, but sign me up for that. At this point, there is just no story in any computer game that can hold my interest for more than about 10 minutes.”

shakes head…

I’m not one to champion story in games. I love games that give me the gameplay enjoyment to create and tell my own stories once I’ve finished playing, but I think Jason’s right on the mark here. Bruce’s column invalidates his opinions of games for me.

The comments about RPGs on consoles especially… Japanese console RPGs have a long storied history of confronting a lot of issues such as religion, racism, love, honor and much more. Final Fantasy is so popular as a series largely due to the underlying social issues the games present. They’re far from “that console game where the 8-year-olds save the world in their magic flying ships”.

I guess it’s easy to stereotype console gamers when you’re on the PC side of the fence. It’s been done that way for years. The console gamers aren’t any better… they note how PC games are only for the pocket protector brigade that wants super-detailed numbers to crunch, gaming by spreadsheet if you will.

When a guy makes the comment above about console games while at the same time spending most of his reviewing talents on the wargame genre, who’s to say the stereotype for PC gamers isn’t valid?

–Dave

Yeah, his complaint is a little too fatuous for an entire article on a major website. Bitching about “the stupid story” is fine for a website such as this, where the conversation thrives on bombastic, ego-driven remarks like that, but writing a whole article on why Bruce Geryk hates stories without any sort of real argument other than listing what he does does not prefer in his games is, just, well, egotistical.

Bruce’s argument basically boils down to “Bruce Geryk hates stories in games” because “Bruce Geryk hates dialogue trees”, “Bruce Geryk hates role-playing fags” and “Bruce Geryk has grown jaded and wants his games to play themselves even though he still won’t be able to shake his growing sense of dissatisfaction with the hobby.” Fine.

It would’ve been nice if Bruce’d tried to break down WHY story in games like NWN doesn’t work, beyond some rather subjective hand-waving about how its all crap with elves and how he prefers his dose of pulpy content in the form of pie-eyed waifs in bikinis searching for crystals. I mean, COME ON: NWN is a great start if you want to criticize story in games, since it manages to be the definitive example of how NOT to add story content with its contrived dialogue trees and distinct lack of cinematic sensibility - for God’s sake, it feels generic and painful simply because that’s the only way you can make a quest with the Aurora toolset. Write tools that make it easy for amateurs to create content, and you’ll inevitably limit yourself to amateurish results. NWN’s SP problem is that it feels like a Choose Your Own Adventure even though you’re playing a video game, and that’s not only incredibly cheesy, it’s a bit insulting at times. If you wanted to take one of those “Lone Wolf” or other D&D-esque kids books like “Deathtrap Dungeon” and turn them into a game, the Aurora toolset would be an ace choice. In fact, it’s got that approach nailed down so tight in its hapless need to be completely usable by any dork with a penchant for elvenkind, I’d suggest that it’s the ONLY choice.

But I digress. I can see the parallels between Diablo 2 and NWN, but at that level of comparison, I could also make an argument for comparing NWN and Gauntlet, or NWN and Cadash. The devil’s in the details, and by limiting his “comparison” to such a level of abstraction, Geryk completely misses the place where NWN fucks up - the details. Y’know, where it’s nothing like Diablo 2 in the slightest, with the dialogue trees and 3E round-based combat and 3D camera issues.

Really, all one takes away from that article is a strong feeling that Geryk really, REALLY thinks role-players are total fruits. I’m not saying that sentiment is inappropriate after reading the VE message boards, but there’s a lot of fruits in every aspect of this hobby and scribing up an entire article just to call fans of elf-based gaming a bunch of bumpokers is stupidly self-absorbed.

If you’re going to write an article bashing NWN, at least try to muster up some real complaints that any theoretically literate game designers not writing reams of sentences describing Lady Aribeth’s love life might be able to take away as criticism. At the very least, give the reader something to think about, rather than just a disfocused complaint about how Bruce Geryk just doesn’t like games that much any more.

"He immediately made everything he will ever say about games from now on totally irrelevant to me. Not liking NWN is fine, and comparing it do Dialbo 2 is apples and oranges, but he can go right ahead if he wants. But when he makes a blanket statement about hating any story in a game and then the absurd generalization about console RPGs, I think it’s safe for me to say he’s obviously looking for completely different entertainment than I am.

“So now whenever I read a Geryk review or column or whatever, I’ll just completely dismiss it. His opinions are valid; they just plainly don’t apply to me.”

Bruce tends to review strategy games. I doubt his feelings about story apply very often to those.

“Really, all one takes away from that article is a strong feeling that Geryk really, REALLY thinks role-players are total fruits. I’m not saying that sentiment is inappropriate after reading the VE message boards, but there’s a lot of fruits in every aspect of this hobby and scribing up an entire article just to call fans of elf-based gaming a bunch of bumpokers is stupidly self-absorbed.”

Isn’t the whole concept of Gamespotting “seriously self-absorbed”? It’s a bunch of quick take columns from the staff and freelancers at Gamespot. I don’t think they’re supposed to be taken seriously as studied pieces of writing.

But Bruce probably does think roleplayers are fruity. Heh.

But that wasn’t the point of the article, Doug. Bruce gave us a great novelty 45, you’re looking for a Yes album. And this sentence still makes me laugh out loud: “If I wanted to read a bad story about a faerie princess and her elf paladin boyfriend, I’d play that console game where the 8-year-olds save the world in their magic flying ships.”

As for story in games, I dunno. There are some genres that have to have a developed story, or you can’t get into it. Take Eternal Darkness, for example. Chick bashed it in another thread for being just another zombie-fest, and noted that the story was meaningless to him (I’m pretty sure that was the gist of things, correct me if I’m wrong). Well, if so, you’ll never get into a horror game, because story is integral to setting a proper atmosphere. But I would agree that poorly paced stories in RPGs are a real problem right now. There’s got to be a balance between NWN and Diablo.

Isn’t the whole concept of Gamespotting “seriously self-absorbed”?

Well, if that’s the case, color me abashed/trolled; I don’t read Gamespot unless I’m linked to it. What’s the point of these “Gamespotting” articles, then - editor ego gratification? Or are the readers just supposed to delight in the parade of “wacky” gamespot personalities?

This was the best response from VE: “YHBT. HTH. HAND.” Someone got it at least.

I basically agree with Bruce on the story issue, though. Most of it is hack, and I can’t stand it. I’m also about fed up with the NWN campaign. I’m about 2/3 of the way through Chapter 3, and I have guessed all of the major plot points so far. Some of the side quests are great - they should be clipped out and made into separate dungeons - but the main plot is just one cliche after another.

I think he meant to say:“If I wanted to read a bad story about a faerie princess and his elf paladin girlfriend…”

Their Gamespotting articles are the equivalent of op ed pieces. Often there are outlandish and bombastic things said (Kasavin’s “Starcraft is the best game in the world EVER” article tops that for me, come on I know you have to write one every week, but…) More often you get a guy reminiscing about how Super Intrastar Gladiators for the Famicom has not been rivalled since.

I disagree, at least with the statement as written.

If it’s easy for amateurs to make content, you’ll get a flood of amateurish content, true. But that doesn’t mean that you’ll be limited to amateurish results. The advent of cheap electronic keyboards means that any amateur finds it easy to make bad music-- but that doesn’t mean that all professional musicians MUST use the keyboards. Or that Bach couldn’t make that baby sing.

I think you meant to say that the Aurora toolset is so limited that only amateurish content can be produced with it. Again, I would have to disagree. The Quake codebase is quite limited, really. But both Half-Life and Daikatana came of it, along with others.

Execution and intent will hold, no matter the tools.

“I read a message board post once about Dungeon Siege, where the poster said he wished he could just walk by some location in the general area of a quest, and he’d be credited with the quest being complete. I don’t know if he was joking or not, but sign me up for that. At this point, there is just no story in any computer game that can hold my interest for more than about 10 minutes.”

I think he’s exaggerating, but he has a point. The story should always be secondary to the gameplay. And whatever the story elements are, they should NEVER get in the way of actually playing the game. See the first comments in the Op: Flashpoint Resistance thread for more proof of this.

It sounds like the story in NWN doesn’t just get up in your face, it practically punches you in the kidneys. I can sympathize; that’s annoying.

Then you’ve got guys like Mark Asher who maintain that Starcraft is a better game than TA because it had a story. Never mind that TA had mind-blowing gameplay that was innovative, strategic, and visceral in ways that Starcraft’s would never be. So now whenever I read an Asher review or column or whatever, I’ll just completely dismiss it. His opinions are valid; they just plainly don’t apply to me.

I would also like to add that, although I enjoyed the gameplay, I thought the story in Final Fantasy 7 was really, really stupid-- cheesy, melodramatic, and cliched.

What I didn’t understand is all the people raving about this part of the game as if it was some nobel-prize caliber literature. Are they 13 years old? Have they never read a book?

Even the upcoming Doom, the first-person shooter series that puts players behind the blazing guns of a lone soldier out to stop God-forsaken demons, now comes fully equipped with a plot line, which annoys its creator.

“Games are not the best way to tell stories because the actors don’t cooperate,” said John Carmack, id software’s lead designer at this year’s E3 video game convention. “Games are at their best when they are treated as activities. Asking a game to be a story is like asking a basketball game to have stories. The better the story you tell, the worse the game becomes.”

http://www.wired.com/news/games/0,2101,53765,00.html