Urgg, we just played a scenario where we had a choice on how to win it. I had a strong feeling that one way would end in something bad for us and the other would be good. My wife said, “What could happen? There really haven’t been any negative consequences”. Against my better judgement I went along and at the end we lost 1 reputation and 2 prosperity. Losing the prosperity hurt.
Aww, rats, I was sure I was using the terms correctly. That’ll teach me to attempt fancy-pants GDC terminology. My thinking was that the cycle of choice and consequence either diminishes your standing or improves your standing and is likely to repeat from there, and that one is a positive feedback loop and the other is a negative feedback loop. But I don’t know where I got that. I might just made it up. Thanks for the correction, Mr. Napkin. I shall have to mull over your examples, which are pretty helpful.
Although…
…sounds like Mr. Fancy Pants Game Terminology Man isn’t always so fancy after all! Fun? Fun?
Negative feedback loop!
Are you surprised? Did you not open the chest in one of those crypt scenarios? That’ll leave an impression on a player!
-Tom
Fine! I can be more specific… I like when a game gives me a choice that’s bad but feels good and an action that’s good but feels bad. For example, choosing A gets me 4 victory points and choosing B prevents me from losing 3 victory points. I have a strong emotional urge to prevent myself from losing points. So when I actually choose A because I know it’s the better option, it makes me feel clever.
The most obvious Gloomhaven equivalent here is when I choose to substitute the top of a card for a 2 Attack. Usually I’m giving up some awesome flashy ability. Sometimes 2 Attack is still better because it means I don’t lose the card or the situation that best benefits the card hasn’t presented itself yet. It feels bad missing out on the special ability, but I feel clever for choosing the less exciting action. Maybe not the kind of joy every one is looking for in a game, but I like those moments where I feel like I’ve overcome myself to make a good decision.
Have I mentioned that I played my first game of Gloomhaven thinking every character had to not only pick two cards, but commit to which side of each card he was using? It was like those dumb programming games where you have to project what the board is going to look like a few turns later, but you screw up and having a robot bumping into a wall or trying to attack the air. Yeah, that was when I thought the difficulty was really out of whack.
I love it when games have cards that you can use in various different ways. Pick this side or that side, cash it in for a resource, use it as a placeholder, take your pick. Gloomhaven certainly has that mechanic going for it.
-Tom
We did, and
Summary
took both items out of the crypt. After reading the scenario text, I said something bad was going to happen if we did that - but I don’t think me wife believed me. The other choice had a positive feedback loop. :-)
Oh geez you don’t like Mechs vs Minions either!!
I just ordered the game; it gets here Monday. (The debate here helped persuade me to pull the trigger. It’s useful to hear negative as well as positive comments.) I’ve downloaded the rulebook, and I suppose I will start reading it before the game arrives. Or is it one of those rulebooks that is best read with the game in front of you?
Also, one or both of my kids may be interested in playing, but my guess is they’ll hop in and out from time to time, while I play more regularly solitaire. Should we be playing two (or even three) separate campaigns, so that everyone sees every scenario? Or do I just play one solo campaign with three characters, and whenever one/both kids want to play, I give them one of the characters for that scenario?
There are 95 scenarios, not counting the downloadable solo scenarios or the 10 scenario Kickstarter campaign, and the game is designed for dropping in and out. If there’s a scenario you really want them to see, go back in casual mode. Running actually separate campaigns would be overkill IMO.
Ah, so just one campaign. That sounds simpler, and more fun for me. We’ll see how it goes. Thanks for the reply.
I will fight you.
-Tom
Great. Here are your six random moves to program into the next four rounds of combat…
My copy has arrived.
I’m unboxing it now.
I’m happy.
edit…opened…there is alot in this box…
I had an enjoyable session last night against a bunch of Inox. My Mindthief started the session sprinting across the map to reach a door that would stop some spawning. This left her exposed to 2 elites (shaman and archer) and she promptly got pummeled down to 1hp and had to trash a card, which was disappointing so early… But it was worth it. Next round she started a series of hit and run tactics on the elites that proved effective.
Meanwhile, my Cragheart dropped some obstacles and pummeled the melee units who couldn’t quite reach him. A series of good modifier draws made the early rounds easy, but unfortunately the late game was made challenging as my Mindthief became exhausted, and the Cragheart modifier deck was left with lots of negative cards.
Still, victory was had and treasure was found.
My Mindthief gained a level, my Cragheart gained a perk. I gave them both the ability to ignore negative scenario effects, as I read online that about 1/3 of the scenarios have negative effects, so taking it early could be useful. My Cragheart will gain a level next scenario, and I’m also thinking about taking the perk to remove negative item effects as well. I realize my base modifier deck could use some love, but the items… Choices choices.
I’m also trying to figure out my feelings on the Giant Rat Swarm summon. Online, the consensus seems to be that it sucks… But two scenarios now it has been very useful. Yes, it moves slow, but it also applies poison and generally soaks attention and damage, which is really useful in my 2 character campaign.
I enjoyed my previous games, but this is the first time I’m really jonesing to play again. Finally getting some advancement in items, perks and levels is beginning the feedback loop I love.
It’s the most useful to use against a single target with high health, like in a room with a few slow moving Elite Stone Golems, or a boss. I agree it’s usually not really the best level 1 card by far, but it has some uses depending on the scenario. And Move 4 is actually pretty handy, though there are better cards that also have Move 4 (I generally play Feedback Loop for the Jump/Move 4 instead).
My son actively asked me when we can get @ShivaX down again to play, and we only just played last weekend (and almost the entire weekend). He’s just as into this as we are, which is awesome.
Have you been playing its actions according to monster AI rules? We didn’t originally and found summons way less useful once we realized we didn’t get to control them. In particular, if there are no enemies present it will just sit in place as it has nothing to focus on.
One suggested house rule is that summons move toward the closest unopened door if there are no active monsters, but are not able to open them.
I don’t think you want to do this for a very specific reason involving something that’s unlocked later.
-Tom
Hm. How far in? We’ve not instituted this house rule yet, but have seen it discussed.
Spoiler one of the class unlocks (circles within circles):
We’ve unlocked the Summoner class already, and the house rule was discussed on the reddit thread for the class.
My kid and I just started the first scenario, and we’re really enjoying it – but as others have mentioned, it’s awfully easy to blow your good cards right away in the first room. For my Spellweaver, who chose the “recover lost cards” ability, that’s not such a big deal. For my kid’s Mindthief, it’s a problem. Still, it will be interesting to see whether we can finish the scenario.
Now that we’ve cleared the first room, there’s no time to waste, right? We’ve got to keep moving because even a round of just moving/standing eats up two cards, right? And even if we long-rest every few rounds, we’ll be losing one card permanently? (Even the potion of stamina won’t recover the “lost” cards – but my Spellweaver’s precious recover ability will do so. I’m wondering whether my Spellweaver will save the day after the Mindthief becomes exhausted.)
I understand why Tom dislikes this negative-feedback-loop, but I think I may enjoy it. I love playing card games like bridge, in which the hand inexorably dwindles in size and power, and yet the decisions often get more interesting. The most fun part about bridge isn’t leading out the first three or four big powerful trump cards; it’s taking a finesse with a jack later in the play of the hand. Or maybe notrump is a more apt example: I lead out three rounds of big diamonds in no-trump, finding that the suit split perfectly, which means my lowly 2 of diamonds wins the final and game-winning trick.