John Tiller, the guy behind the Panzer Campaigns games (which have evolved to include any number of eras) has always made every enhancement and upgrade both free and backwards compatible, in that if a new game comes out with feature X, patches come out adding that feature to all the previous games. Yes, the games are 2D and less glitzy than Combat Mission titles, but he has benn doing this for over a decade and the games still sell for pretty much full price. So, it can be done, and I think a lot of war gamers expect that sort of thing. What EA does or what you would expect from Mass Effect or what not is not that relevant I fear to frogs.

“Much less glitzy” doesn’t begin to cover John Tiller’s games. They are, to a fair approximation, completely unplayable by anyone who wasn’t already super committed before they even heard of his games. So it’s not really fair to say “Hey, Battlefront should totally act just like this guy’s company, or else he might lose the business of those 23 customers who expect it!”

My belief is that the only wargame companies that will thrive in the long term are those who try to expand the market, rather than those who keep trying to party like it’s 1979.

…true enough, but Tiller has been making games for a long time, successfully, and for more than a few folks. Battlefront doesn’t exactly sell gazillions either, they just act like they are a AAA publisher sometimes. I don’t think the difference is all that extreme, really. But that is not really the point. I don’t see how Battlefront’s update policy for good or ill represents any sort of positive, genre expanding endeavor–it is not related to how modern or professional their products are. War gaming is niche, has been niche, and will always be niche, so expanding the market beyond modest degree is and always has been a chimerical dream. So, yeah, catering to the hard core is a smart move I would say. Of course, given the near religious fanaticism of Battlefront fans, it does seem that Battlefront can pretty much do what it wants…

I’m not as familiar with the French market as Bob seems to be.

I respect John Tiller’s design philosophy and understand that it is influenced by his business model, which is that he is primarily a military contractor and the bulk of his revenue comes from military-related contracts, and having developed his system, he does not find the time investment in trying to develop a completely different one makes financial sense. He has an established market of players who enjoy his games, and he obviously is able to justify further designs based on his current sales.

That said, I agree with peterb that one shouldn’t expect one company to do certain things just because some other company does. They have different assumptions and experience different market pressures.

Wargaming isn’t necessarily a niche - the Crudsader Kings 2 DLC is in Steam’s top ten right now.

Good presentation and good tutorials break barriers. That is also usually what wargame devs skimp on and then claim they are niche.

Wait, CK2 counts as a wargame now?


rezaf

Last I heard, CK2 was a RTS game

It is beardy. If wargame are just tile-based operational games, then yes, you win, but I work to a wider definition that includes those huge ass ACW games, CK and friends, etc.

Wargamers, and wargame devs, are their own worst enemies.

This isn’t about winning, I was genuinely surprised someone would refer to CK2 as a wargame.
One reason for this is that I feel Paradox games aren’t niche or grognardy (which wargames usually are), another that I think especially CK2 is less about warfare and more about dynasty and empire management.
CK2 is to me, while not an AAA game, definately an A game, with good public exposure and mostly a non-grognardy audience.
But maybe I’m wrong on all accounts, I don’t know.


rezaf

Wargames are a subclass of strategy games that deal with military operations.

CK2 is a historical strategy game, but not a War game because it is not a game about War.

Meh, I still stand by the statement that wargame devs are their own worst enemies.

Hmm, I could have sworn I had to pay for East Front II, which IIRC was largely East Front upgraded to add whatever they put into WestFront. I might be misremembering though, that was a long time ago.

Also my copy of “The Proud and the Few” was never upgraded to add the 3d view found in the newer Squad Battles games, which is most unfortunate since I think having a 3d view would make the game much more enjoyable.

Speaking of wargames, isn’t it about time for Matrix’s summer sale?

That sounds reasonable enough. Maybe add wargame publishers to the list of worst enemies, though. I label the typical sprawling Paradox game ‘grand strategy’. Hearts of Iron is a wargame on top of that.

In other news, I rate Strategic Command: World War I a 3 (that is, the number of hours I stayed up past when I planned to go to bed). Last night, I fired up the Gallipoli scenario, which takes place here:

If you are, as I was last night, unfamiliar with the Gallipoli campaign, let me draw your attention to a few key points (using the old names from that map): foremost, Krithia, the city near the southwest end of the peninsula. This was the historical high-water mark. After a month of fighting, the Turks had stymied the French and British with a line of trenches, centered on Krithia and running across the peninsula (a line of trenches? Brilliant!). Notice also Sedd el Bahr at the peninsula’s tip, the only good port on the map. These two cities and the area between them are the Helles sector.

Second is Anzac Cove, west of the town of Kojadere through the south end of the Sari Bair heights. Historically, the ANZAC forces landed here and made very little progress, mostly owing to an insufficient sense of urgency on the part of their commanders and well-fought opposition from the Ottomans.

Third, notice Kilid Bahr, Maidos, and Boghali, the latter two objectives for the scenario in Strategic Command, which runs from the initial landings on April 25th until May 31st, by which time the historical fighting had settled down into the trenches.

My landings were, in the main, historical. My ANZAC forces landed at Gaba Tepe rather than just north of it, taking some casualties but securing the town (or fortification or whatever; it’s a valuable source of supply either way) by the 27th.

The landings in the Helles sector were less successful. Since I was learning about supply as I went, the Royal Navy and Marines forces I put ashore at Beach Y were, owing to their lack of headquarters unit and distance from the other beachhead, completely out of supply, only a few squares (yes, not hexes, but I’m not grognard enough to care). Oops. The British landings at Sedd el Bahr weren’t quite as disastrous, but took moderate casualties coming ashore, and failed to capture Sedd el Bahr until the French made their landings and helped out.

With Sedd el Bahr and its port (and source of supply!) captured, British and French reinforcements begin to come ashore in earnest. The relatively heavier ANZAC force in the north in a more aggressive deployment, however, serves to pin a large Turkish force in defense, and the defenders of Krithia go unreinforced and end up falling by the 15th of May, leaving the roads up the coast open for an Allied march on Kilid Bahr and Maidos. Unfortunately, it takes nearly two weeks to march in force up the coast and deploy for battle: off the roads, the terrain alternates between hills, woodland, and mountains, Kilid Bahr and Maidos are both so far from Krithia that I can’t hope for any success on the attack without a headquarters unit to boost supply levels, and headquarters units are slow. Some of the British forces and the French contingent march up toward Anzac Cove and Kojadere, filling in the line there while a detachment from ANZAC marches north around the Sidi Bair heights to capture the town at the north. Their reconnaissance in force reveals a large concentration of Turkish forces in and around Kojadere and Boghali.

Meanwhile, the main body of the British force reaches and captures Kilid Bahr on the 27th of May. They attempt attacks on Maidos, but the headquarters unit there is well-entrenched and not likely to yield to infantry assault. Fortunately, a British heavy artillery battery makes it to firing positions on the 30th of May, and after a heavy bombardment on the 31st, British infantry are able to storm Maidos.

Since I didn’t secure Boghali, the third objective for a tactical victory (as opposed to a major victory), the game declared it a stalemate, which is certainly a realistic result for the First World War (though the historical result was a serious defeat for the Allies). On the other hand, I have a large British force available after the capture of Maidos and Kilid Bahr, and the only thing preventing it from encircling the main part of the Turkish army in Boghali and Kojadere is one entrenched Turkish unit in Eski Keni, which would have yielded to bombardment and infantry assault. The ensuing encirclement probably would have led to an Allied capture of Gallipoli.

I’m hesitant to offer anything final without trying one of the full campaigns, but I’m hesitant to try one of the full campaigns without a week or two to actually play one (I suspect ‘World War I’ is a lot more sprawling than ‘Gallipoli’, even if the scale gets coarser for the former–longer turns, corps instead of brigades for a unit, and so on). So far, though, I think it’s pretty good. Add to the list of pros: works well as an operational wargame. Like in the Command Ops/Airborne Assault games, I got a much better feel for the impact of terrain on a fight than I do in Hearts of Iron, and the whole zone of control/reaction attack/supply thing helps to make a battlefield that’s not just uniformly-strong lines without any gap whatsoever (although you probably get that on the Western Front).

Anyway, I’d call it a buy.

Fishbreath, that sounds awesome. Your image isn’t working for me though, I’m not really quite sure why. The img tag itself is showing up explicitly instead of displaying an image.

Edit: NM, Fishbreath figured it out himself.


rezaf

Strange. It fixed itself after I tried it a few times.

Edit: rezaf’s right, actually. That Other Forum doesn’t seem to require the http://.

East Front was a TalonSoft game–I should have caveated my comments by limiting them to the HPS and John Tiller Games stuff, all post TalonSoft era. I guess one or two like Proud might have missed updates, which is too bad, though I think the PZC stuff is mostly up do date. It itvdos take awhile sometimes i guess.

Grr, grogs . Dang iPad.

I imagine an update to add a 3d view would require spending money to add content and not just porting a change to the engine.