5441

Don’t mean to rag on you, but, can you tell me how power and weapon attack translate into the damage you’re doing? (Answer: I have no idea, and it’s modified by every skill anyway, making comparisons across classes and even weapon sets stupidly complex)
Tell me how the condition damage stat translate into bleeding, burning, or poison damage. (Answer: I have no idea)
Tell me what do I gain from going from 2800 defense to 3000 defense? (Answer: ~3% extra damage reduction)
How much extra healing does healing power give me anyway? (Answer: It’s different for almost every skill in the game)
How much extra damage does a basic crit do anyway? (Answer: 50%)

It’s really difficult to do any sort of trade-off calculation with these types of questions without knowing how these things work. Should I build for condition damage, giving up direct damage? Should I invest in healing power? Toughness?

And that’s before getting in traits and how to fit together a good set of traits, let alone knowing if they’re even working as intended. I know may know the answer or have a somewhat decent understanding of these, but the game itself teaches you nothing about them.

Although ineffiablebob is correct in saying knowing how stats and traits work doesn’t really matter in PvE, this opaqueness, combined with open world PvE not teaching you the intricacies of the combat system (and open world PvE being really easy) can easily leave someone with the impression that combat is bad.

5442

I was a theorycrafting min-maxing hardcore raider in WoW for far too long, and I too have found the stats and traits…oblique at best, incomprehensible at worst.

That being said, I don’t think it’s had any impact on my PVE play (Norn Ranger, I just go for power and precision) and I’m still enjoying levelling well enough - (even if there hasn’t been a single memorable event, quest, area or happening in the game for me so far).

5443

I used to be a hardcore min/maxer as well. I look at gw2 this way: do my traits proc stuff on crits? Probably want more precision. Am I killing things to slow? More power. Dying to physical? Toughness. Dying to magic/dots? Vitality. The shaping of your character is very easy to do based on your play experience. If you somehow want the game to tell you this is the max dps build idk that stuff has always been the realm of forums and wikis. If it was in game build variety would plummet. Gw2 is more about what works for you not you didn’t go to max dps.com so you are benched.

5444

OK, let me try to circle back to the original point of this discussion - HRose’s complaints about the combat system. Stats are one portion of this, the in world PvE combat the other portion. The point I’m trying to make is that the obliqueness of the stat and skill system combined with most world PvE encounters work (either A. Run face into enemy and autoattack OR B. Stay at range and autoattack enemy) easily obscures the depth of the combat system, and all the cool interactions that can happen.

For example, let’s take the Ranger. Almost all world encounters can be solved by pet takes aggro, pew pew with shortbow. But let’s take a look at one really cool thing he can do, which only a small subset of the population figures out mostly because of the lack of necessity.
Weapons are Sword/Anything and Greatsword. The Sword 1 skill chain is very difficult to use on autoattack, as it locks you into place. However, taken off autoattack, you have exact control over what it does, and you can then use the third attack in the chain to leap past the opponent you’re attacking. Sword 2 is a backwards dodge, then a forwards leap. However, note that this can be used untargeted. Greatsword 3 is just a long range leap.

So putting this all together, you can, starting off facing your target

  1. Maneuver your Sword #1.3 attack to leap past your target 400 units
  2. Swing your camera to face your target again, use Sword #2.1 to leap another 400 units away
  3. Swing your camera to face away from your target, use Sword #2.2 to leap 600 units away
  4. Switch to Greatsword, use #3 to leap 1100 units away

Bam. In the space of a second, you are now 2500 units away from your target. This is really cool and an awesome disengage that is completely unique. But when do you ever need to use this in the open world?

5445

What if everyone were required to level a Thief before any of the other classes? Thieves absolutely must use their skills and their evades and their synergies even in PvE. I’m kidding, but Thief was the first class I rolled and it was a monster until I mastered all that stuff. Then when I rolled a Guardian that thing was practically invincible because I was working the synergies and even dodging followed by the various leaps to kill the heaviest hitters. If I’d never played a Thief I might still be complaining that the combat wasn’t more like WoW. lol

5446

This is what I thought when I played GW2. I’m not at all averse to playing around with numbers, I even enjoy digging around in forums and wikis (it’s part of building a community) but with GW2 I just didn’t feel it was necessary, I didn’t feel any information was lacking, as it was intuitive enough what I needed for the character I was playing, and a few bumps in whatever made a noticeable difference.

Frankly, I think the system is genius, I’ve never experienced such smooth MMO gameplay or a more enjoyable combat system - moreover, there’s something here that few games seem to be able to do, which is to have it so that you can have a huge variety of classes and a huge variety of builds within classes, all of which seem to be both different from each other and effective. My feeling is that they must have spent a huge proportion of time on refining this, which I think is as it should be.

And further in response to HRose’s comments: there’s a sweet spot for me (or maybe several different kinds of sweet spots) between the way an avatar moves and the feeling of “oomph” I get from playing it, and the responsiveness. WoW was responsive but awfully floaty, so was GW; GW2 is responsive too but also feels much more solid and “oomphy”. To put it another way, animation clipping isn’t necessary if the “feel” you get from waiting a teensy bit for the animation to complete is intrinsically satisfying. For comparison, SWTOR tried but failed at that, but GW2 succeeds.

But that’s a horses for courses thing, I suppose.

5447

A lot of what I don’t like in GW2 is due to style. So not an objective type of thing. It’s the overall style of being baroque, very rich visually, even the style of spells and big moves. For example I mentioned how a zone in GW2 tends to overlap with content and subzones, everything is next to everything else. In WoW the zones feel having more breadth. Maybe emptier, but having more a sense of place because the landscape is natural and has a flow you understand. GW2 feels like mini-rooms and squeezed together, where one mini-room seem oblivious and disconnected about what happens 10 meters away.

Combat at low levels in WoW is definitely deadly. I died so many times in all classes. You overpull and you die. Obviously the game now has no surprises so you know how to handle everything, but it’s really easy to die if you do something wrong and don’t overlevel (which is now THE NORM, WoW with the last 2 expansions has completely destroyed the balanced flow and is becoming a worse game as time passes. the new designers obviously aren’t remotely as good as those who lead the game before). In GW2 I still don’t understand how to play, or maybe it’s that I don’t have that much choice, but I’ve never risked dying even when my aoe attacks (which seem to be the default) pull everyone around. I’m playing a guardian. Don’t have any ranged thing, so not even a pulling mechanic. Using a 2handed mace I basically have auto-attack, then one skill that makes me leap and do some damage (I use this as aoe), and then have one skill that freezes the enemy for like 2 seconds (useless), another that draw a circle around me that does nothing beside not letting the enemy escape and lasting again some 2 seconds (more useless) then another I can’t remember, equally useless. Then I have a cure thing, and something that traps the enemy, that is again quite pointless since it has a so short duration. So I’m playing solo and what are my options? Auto-attack, maybe use the leap attack if I’m on more than one target. I don’t even understand if those skills are going to improve or if that’s it. One of my healing skills don’t even tell me by what amount it cures me. There are skills that mention chain attacks and finishing moves, but there’s nothing explained anywhere.

It took me a while to figure up that the skills are objects you discover in the world instead of having them as you level up. GW2 uses these outlandish ideas that on one side are only superficially innovative, and on the other are opaque. The karma points that I seem to gain on “public quests” don’t seem listed anywhere in the UI. There are so many things that I don’t understand so well. Even something straightforward as a weapon DPS isn’t shown anywhere.

I’m not one of those WoW’s enthusiasts that are going to hate everything that isn’t that game. I’m certainly very critical of MMOs in general, so it’s not easy to see me praising something. But GW2 isn’t that different game to be considered as innovative. It does things slightly differently from WoW, but not better. Or at least I haven’t seen anything that I could call a praiseworthy improvement over WoW.

And it bugs me so much that the collision system suck. WoW’s own is identical, with similar flaws. But GW2 manages to have bounding boxes around the environment so absurdly large that you are constantly floating in the air. Maybe as an aid to the platforming (which sucks). If you want to have platforming in a game you need perfect jumping animations and collisions. And both are weak spots in GW2.

5448

Hmmm I thought they were kidding about your wow blindfolds but I guess not. I agree with you that vanilla wow and bc where much more deadly and interesting - but unfortunately that’s not they way its been since wotlk. Unless you are playing with autorun on or doing it intentionally it is almost impossible to overpull in wow. Guardians are basically the equivalent of wow paladins in easy mode. You don’t have a ranged attack because you haven’t chosen to equip a weapon that is ranged. Want to figure out if a skill is useful? Read the description and try it in different combat situations. As suggested upthread if the guardian isn’t working for you try a different class - I personally found them to be my least favorite class so far.

In regards to skill points:

Acquisition

1 skill point is earned for each of the following:

Completing a skill challenge
Leveling up, starting at level 5
Past level 80, for every 254,000 experience points earned.
Dessa's Experimental Journal (purchased for 35 Fractal Relics)

I open up my inventory and my gems, karma, laurels and gold are all listed right there.

I am glad the bounding boxes are there because it makes the jumping puzzles (slightly) less crazy. The great thing about gw2 if you don’t want to do the jumping puzzles you don’t have to, if you don’t like pvp you don’t have to, and if you don’t like pve (you guessed it) you don’t have to in order to pvp.

I see this alot from people who have played wow for the past (10) years. If something is not in the same spot as wow its wrong, if it feels different then wow its wrong. Wow is (was?) great but I am so burnt on their take on an mmo (grinding and content gating) and I find the combat so mind-numbing boring I can’t go back. GW2 not being innovative in the mmo-space is crazy talk, like blizzard they may not have invented everything here but their refinement and integration in the same system is superb.

http://www.mmorpg.com/gamelist.cfm/game/473/view/forums/thread/333764/List-of-GW2-Innovations.html

5449

I finally got back into the game after giving up on my level 50 something guardian during the first month of release. I think it was a combination of things that drove me away from the game, but being back I can appreciate a lot of the things that GW2 does right. I am also loving my new thief while my guardian really frustrated me a lot.

I can relate to a lot of the comments being made in the last page or so. In the past few MMORPGs that I played a lot, I was a cleric of some sort and was used to being a central and pivotal reason for the success of a group. The new system in GW2 where there are no specific tank/healer/DPS roles really took me a long time to get my head around. My guardian couldn’t save anyone and couldn’t really tank for crap either it seemed although I find out later he probably did it better than the other classes. I just didn’t get noticeable feedback that I was helping and felt lost. It also didn’t help that the game can really be overwhelming trying to learn the new stats and traits and weapon skill combinations that I always felt I was just stumbling around and never felt I was being efficient even if I was. Then, our first trials with the dungeons were so brutal that I never went back and did them again. It seemed like every dungeon at release was all about a bunch of us flailing and kiting and rolling around as if the creatures got to you it was instant knockdown/disable/death. I understand some of those were re-balanced since early release, but it was extremely frustrating to die over and over again and have no idea how to avoid it many times. Once you get a lot of experience with the skills, traits, synergies, and know how to read the feedback systems the game does give you, it can be a great experience it seems, but it took me a really long time to get comfortable and I still am not there with two level 50 characters so far. I have extensive MMORPG experience too going back to the beginning of 3D graphical ones (would even estimate 10-20 hrs a week on average since 1996 believe it or not), so it isn’t for lack of experience with these sorts of games, but something about GW2 makes me feel way more lost than I have ever been before.

But, my guild is still having a blast and looking for more to help with the new guild quests and I miss them so I rolled up a new thief a few weeks ago and am having a blast with him. Now that I am not trying to tank or heal, it has become a lot more fun and I am getting more used to recognizing the effects I am putting on mobs and the ones they are doing to me and how to react to them. Plus, I had no idea the short bow could be so fun! I totally sucked at GW1 also, so the general design approach is not familiar to me for some reason and some effects may just be a little too fast for me and the reactions the game expects me to perform. Still, I am glad I am giving it another shot and looking forward to finally getting a guy to level 80!

5450

For someone who is supposedly a MMO enthusiast, it is sad how wrong your impression of the game is.

5451

A few things:

  1. Environmental objects and challenges are one way to gain skill points, but you also earn them every level.
  2. If you’re finding that there’s no way for you to die, I’m guessing you’re probably not very deep into the game. I too found the early levels extremely forgiving, but now that I’m in the late 20s I die all the frigging time. Enough so, actually, that it kills my desire to keep playing. Guardians are also the tankiest class in the game, although I was assured at one point that survivability is more about mastering dodging and skillful use of your class abilities than it is about innate class durability.
  3. Weapon DPS is not a thing that exists in GW2 afaik - all attacks are skills. Weapons show their strength, and that strength factors into the damage your skills do. Somehow. I won’t pretend to know how calculations like that work, and I can totally understand if you’d rather know.
  4. Every healing skill shows how much it heals for. I’m not sure what you’re referring to when you say you have one that doesn’t. Maybe it’s actually a health buff?
  5. Karma points are a currency that’s shown at the bottom of the window in your inventory and when you speak to vendors. You can use it to purchase gear from karma vendors - every “heart” on the map will be a karma vendor when you complete their tasks, and there are some others around.
  6. If a skill has “chain” on it, when you activate it it will be replaced by the next skill above it in the tooltips until you use that skill (or a certain time elapses, I think). Finishing moves are (I think) part of the skill combo system which is really arcane and mostly only relevant in group play. I’m sure someone will correct me if I’m wrong.
  7. Every weapon has a different set of five weapon skills you can earn as you continue to fight with that weapon. (For elementalists, five per element.) If the 2h mace skill set doesn’t fit your play style, try other weapons. If you want ranged attacks, break out a ranged weapon.

FWIW, I do agree that GW2 isn’t very good at explaining how to play it proficiently.

5452

I’m now a 55 Ranger and I find it ridiculously easy. Routinely kill groups of 2-3 veterans using a rotation of pet swapping and healing, and I know I’m not particularly skilled. There hasn’t ever been a sense of danger for me (once I figured out champion meant unsoloable unless I wanted to sit there for 10-15mins slowly dpsing it down) either.

I’m hoping dungeons will be an interesting challenge, but I haven’t had the time to mess around with them yet!

5453

My take is the dungeons are significantly more difficult than the events topside.

5454

Out of all the classes I’ve played, I found Ranger to be the simplest, safest and least challenging to level with. Every other class requires more attention to be effective.

5455

I would tend to agree as well. And it isn’t necessarily that the entire length of the dungeon is difficult, it’s just that there are some encounters (and it’s not limited to bosses) which are just a crazy jump in difficulty, usually because of a) some mechanic that absolutely must be dealt with that isn’t clear or b) ridiculous numbers of mobs (that frequently respawn).

I don’t know how ANet is doing it, but more and more I’m finding these encounters come up right after I say to myself “this run is going really well, we should be done in plenty of time”.

5456

I’ve found topside PvE (haven’t played dungeons or anything else yet) to be very inconsistent; as an Elementalist, there are times when I can solo veterans, but other times when one or two standard enemies can kill me.

5457

I just recently started my second character, a Sylvari Mesmer. What a complete difference in difficulty from my human necromancer! The necro breezed through everything up to about level 30, and once I learned some basic dodging and “be careful where you fire an AoE” skills, hasn’t had any serious difficulty up into the mid-40s (where he is now). The mesmer is getting her ass handed to her almost immediately. I love the concept, with the illusion clones doing a lot of her fighting, but since those clones appear to be exceedingly fragile and targeted to a single enemy, they’re of limited use against multiple enemies and tend to die quickly against anything halfway powerful. Damage output is pretty low as well, although I suspect that’s just a function of being low level and will improve as I get higher. Last night I finished the first personal story arc, but was forced to replay a couple of the missions multiple times before I could get past them, dying many times in the process. I may have to consult the Interwebs on mesmer tips if things don’t improve on their own in the next 10 levels or so.

5458

Early mesmer is definitely as tough as PvE get. I had to retry one story mission several times with mine.

5459

Mesmer is (or develops into, I guess?) a fantastically survivable class when played well. I don’t consider three or four regular mobs a hard fight, nor a veteran and an add or two. You have to get really comfortable with weapon-switching and knowing when your blocks/dodges/invisibility/etc. are up, though, to make a good show of it. Also, staff and greatsword do good damage/conditions, but I don’t think they’re particularly good for solo play. Sword/pistol seems pretty popular, since that gives you reasonable damage and some crowd control. I like scepter/torch for the counter, invisibility, and confuse ray, but apparently I’m very weird for thinking that scepter/torch is any good.

5460

Yes, Mesmers get more and more powerful as they level up. And get more development options too. They have very good and varied traits that can change the way you play your character completely depending on your loadout. At higher levels you will be tagging groups of mobs and lining them all up for devastating AOEs. And you will never die if you play well.

IMO the toughest class to play is the Thief.