1741

10-AM TO 2-PM PST stress test event tomorrow. Sadly, while I’m at work.

No one else picked up on this? I randomly fired up the client to update this and got the launcher news. Doesn’t seem like this would stress anything out.

1742

I cannot bring myself to play an MMO game if I know that my character gets wiped in the end.

I’ve played in the first weekend to check things out, I will now wait for the release.

1743

It’s a wonderful concept to have fun be the main design paradigm, and it’s definitely true that most MMOs haven’t provided that fully. The subscription model was never a good one.

The problem with GW2 - to my mind - is that they think reducing everything to its base “fun” elements is actually more fun than having a large player horizon.

Having all end-game loot be the same for everyone is not fun, long-term.
Having a very limited arsenal that’s mostly available within a relatively short time of play is not fun, long-term.
Having PvP be a numbers game, because gear won’t matter and the arsenal is so limited that your personal skill matters much less than having a team with you - is not fun, long-term.

Fun in the short-term? Sure - but not so much if there’s no long-term horizon.

Basically, the entire game is like that. It’s eternally accessible and you’ll be playing variations of content from 1-80 without feeling much of an accomplishment.

The idea that “defeating” content is more fun than actually progressing your character and expanding your arsenal WHILE you’re defeating content - is something I most certainly can’t see. It would be like Skyrim giving you all the best loot in a few hours - and then just turn it into an adventure game where you rarely grow much - you just get to experience content.

It would be like WoW reducing the barriers of entry - and just let everyone get epic items and most content/powers accessible within a few days/weeks of play. How long would it be until you felt you’d exhausted what the game has to offer?

I don’t know… Maybe I’m just not seeing it. Maybe I’m too rooted in the traditional power-progression, and it’s been a mistake to enjoy that all along. Maybe ArenaNET really understand what’s fun.

It should be said that I didn’t like Guild Wars at all. It felt way too limited and the super-instanced nature of it all turned me off.

I’ve played GW2 beta for a while, and it just doesn’t excite me in the last. The story (mostly played Thief) is uninspired and the writing is awful. I’d have access to most interesting stuff at level 30 - and combat was mashing 2-4 buttons almost eternally. PvP felt like a numbers game - and fights were very drawn out. The Mists felt like a zerg fest - though I’m sure coordination will help a lot.

I just don’t get the hype, really.

1744

Read the 5 posts before yours :)

Most of these are pretty wrong.

  1. End-game loot being the “same” is only true if you’re looking at power. There’s still the right type of stats to get for your build, and the right looks for you gear. This isn’t a power progression game, though. Thank fuck.

  2. It’s not fun long-term to have most stuff unlocked short-term? Having the best parts of your class/character/whatever gated behind 40 hours of play isn’t “fun” by any stretch of the imagination. Making content fun and relevant is a damn sight better.

  3. PVP is not a numbers game. sPvP has equal teams and is a lot like something like TF2. Personal skill matters a hell of a lot there. As for the WvW, zergs aren’t actually the answer and there’s a ton of stuff smaller teams can do to win the overall battle.

It would be like WoW reducing the barriers of entry - and just let everyone get epic items and most content/powers accessible within a few days/weeks of play. How long would it be until you felt you’d exhausted what the game has to offer?

It’d be shit. Because WoW’s design is based around the old model. Why would you shoehorn in a system that doesn’t make sense for that game?

It should be said that I didn’t like Guild Wars at all. It felt way too limited and the super-instanced nature of it all turned me off.

I’m going to make a massive assumption and guess that “limited” meant in terms of movement rather than progression? It’s not a game that feels like any other MMO and the whole “no jumping” and almost RTS-style movement is a real hurdle.

But then there’s the frankly awesome skills system, the ability to customise your character’s ability bar to create combos that suit how you want to play, the fact that it’s not a grind to max level, some pretty awesome tech, a whole team of AI heroes to RPG-style level up and configure to make your own team of content-destroying motherfuckers, etc etc.

I’ve played GW2 beta for a while, and it just doesn’t excite me in the last. The story (mostly played Thief) is uninspired and the writing is awful. I’d have access to most interesting stuff at level 30 - and combat was mashing 2-4 buttons almost eternally. PvP felt like a numbers game - and fights were very drawn out. The Mists felt like a zerg fest - though I’m sure coordination will help a lot.

I just don’t get the hype, really.

OK, well. GW2 will not - cannot - be for everyone. But I do have a few questions.

Did you play anything other than the Thief? It has the most traditional mechanic of all the classes, and I wonder if that’s given you this idea that it’s a button mashing game*. And did you try multiple races? You said the Thief story was uninspired but there’s multiple Thief stories in the game thanks to race/character selection choices.

  • For reference, my ranger in the early 20s tends to fight like this:

Switch to axe/warhorn, fire off the warhorn buff + the bird strike, make one axe attack that gives my pet’s next attack a Weakness condition. Switch to sword/torch for close-up work, chuck the torch on the way in for big damage, drop down one of my traps (usually flame trap), make sure I use Serpent’s Strike wisely to avoid any big hits. I can use Hornet Sting (leap out, swaps into leap back in+cripple) either offensively or defensively depending on my situation.

That leaves me with whatever other utility skills I have, my pet’s special ability (assuming he’s not dead), my torch’s AOE flame ability, and of course the rest of the skills on my first set of weapons. I can use those differently if there’s multiple enemies - say dropping down the flame AOE and then switching to my axe to fire off multiple ranged attacks that take advantage of the combo system, or use the leap to give me a fire shield, etc.

I have a lot of options. Button mashing won’t work for me unless it’s an easy encounter (and there’s still plenty of tuning to be done).

My experience on the Thief suggested it’s a damn hard profession to get to grips with. Up until you get weapon swaps, it’s pretty dull and I struggled to like dagger/dagger or pistol/pistol, but being able to swap between them made it a lot better. The shortbow is awesome and the class has some pretty cool movement shenanigans, but the energy-style mechanic really didn’t sit very well with me.

Finally, here’s a decent article about power progression and GW2’s approach: http://www.darkademic.co.uk/blog?id=202

1745

I split this into two posts because it’s basically two separate conversations. So this one is the “why the hype?” response.

ANet are trying to move away from the treadmill of loot progression, raid tiers, and static content that gets marginalised by the levelling system and expansions. They’ve attempted the following:

  1. Removed the “holy trinity” to make all class combinations viable for all content, and created variation within those classes so that (for example) a party of 5 warriors could each play very different and offer something different to the group.

  2. Put the focus back on personal skill for combat. This so far seems like a partial success; dodging is a pretty good mechanic, and each class has a few tools for crowd control or interruption of big skills. All classes can be ranged or melee. Combat feels pretty meaty but this is a very personal thing and no two people will have the same opinion.

  3. Make the game as inclusive as possible. This means not punishing people for having certain class combinations. Rewarding the ones who just want to explore. Rewarding the ones who love crafting. Making it easier for high level players to play with lower level friends. Providing dungeons with multiple ways of playing them depending on the challenge you want. Rewarding people for helping out random strangers.

  4. Recognise that PVP and PVE do not mix very comfortably and appeal to everyone. So PVE is totally separate from PVP, and PVP is split up into the competitive PVP (equal teams, equal gear) and World vs World (3 sides, server-based combat, “epic” battles, a mix of PVE+PVP gameplay, and a regular matchmaking system to ensure it stays fresh and vaguely even)

  5. Promote teamplay - by ensuring that everyone benefits if you help other people out with kills, resurrections, events, etc.

and finally - and most importantly (for me anyway)

  1. Make content stay relevant and stay interesting with the dynamic events system. It’s an attempt to move away from static questing (which remains in small part in the game) and it’s proving to be a tricky balancing act ensuring that enough events exist to make life interesting without making it absurd. Event chains leading up to big bosses where failure simply means they take a different branch? Events that actually affect the world around you? Events that don’t need breadcrumb quests or specific groups, that you can drop in and follow as much as you want? Events that can be triggered just by chatting to NPCs (no, not questgivers), that can lead you across the zone and really help create a sense of place? Events that can constantly be added by the devs, that are still fun and relevant at higher level regardless of where you are?

Yes please.

TL,DR: They’re trying to “fix” what they see as being wrong with MMORPGs. The SWTOR devs might just agree with them.

1746
  1. End-game loot being the “same” is only true if you’re looking at power. There’s still the right type of stats to get for your build, and the right looks for you gear. This isn’t a power progression game, though. Thank fuck.
    I admit, I only look at power - which is what I find interesting about gear.

Well, not entirely true. I DO care about aesthetics - but it’s very, very minor in comparison to power and especially stuff like enabling unique gameplay approaches and character builds.

  1. It’s not fun long-term to have most stuff unlocked short-term? Having the best parts of your class/character/whatever gated behind 40 hours of play isn’t “fun” by any stretch of the imagination. Making content fun and relevant is a damn sight better.
    Well, it depends on how much you enjoy doing things over and over. Basically, all these games are only fun if the activity in itself is fun. GW2 is probably fun in this way, if you really enjoy the arsenal and combat available.

For me, and I admit I AM very focused on perpetual progression and especially the carrot of opening up new powers and options throughout the development/level-up experience - the GW2 combat wasn’t very interesting (it was ok, but really felt like spamming 2-4 powers in all fights).

I do admit, however, that combat LOOKED good and the basic movement/flow was excellent.

  1. PVP is not a numbers game. sPvP has equal teams and is a lot like something like TF2. Personal skill matters a hell of a lot there. As for the WvW, zergs aren’t actually the answer and there’s a ton of stuff smaller teams can do to win the overall battle.
    I know people keep saying this, and I could be wrong. I just know what it felt like while I played. The fights were overlong, and I just didn’t feel like my arsenal was particularly varied. It was spamming 2-4 powers, and the occasional utility power.

TF2 is all about movement, timing and reaction - and fights are over in a few seconds. It’s an action game, so there isn’t much in the way of special powers - but I certainly wouldn’t enjoy playing TF2 for more than an hour every now and then. GW2 is probably fun in that same way - IF you really like the combat, but I don’t see myself enjoying it as a long-term game.

It’d be shit. Because WoW’s design is based around the old model. Why would you shoehorn in a system that doesn’t make sense for that game?
I’m not doing that. I’m just trying to articulate what GW2 seems to be doing, and I don’t see the revolution. I see them removing the power grind - without replacing it with anything.

Maybe I’m missing something, and I’m prepared for that. I just wish I could see it.

Since the level of hype is VERY VERY big, I have to assume other people can see what’s so revolutionary about what they’re doing.

I was VERY prepared to be impressed when I first got invited - and I had a very open mind about it. Their preview videos and hype machine had all but convinced me that they truly understood MMO design better than most.

I think they DO care a lot about the gamer, I just don’t think I’m the gamer they’re referring to.

I’m going to make a massive assumption and guess that “limited” meant in terms of movement rather than progression? It’s not a game that feels like any other MMO and the whole “no jumping” and almost RTS-style movement is a real hurdle.
Actually, it meant in terms of what gameplay was available. Yes, the limited movement was a part of that. I think my biggest problem was the private nature of the instances, the lack of gear progression - and the way PvP was handled. Again, because I’m very much about progression and evolution.

In one way, it was actually MORE interesting than GW2 - because I loved how many skills were available to find throughout the game. That was a pretty significant development aspect.

GW2 is about skill points - and those are used for a relatively limited arsenal of “utility skills” - many which SEEM rather samey to me. At least compared to the kind of variety available in GW1 skills.

But then there’s the frankly awesome skills system, the ability to customise your character’s ability bar to create combos that suit how you want to play, the fact that it’s not a grind to max level, some pretty awesome tech, a whole team of AI heroes to RPG-style level up and configure to make your own team of content-destroying motherfuckers, etc etc.
That sounds like their marketing campaign :)

I’m really not seeing the AWESOME nature of the skill system, though I’m impressed by their server-technology and things like the design/layout of the major cities - I don’t think it translates to a particularly engaging gaming experience.

Did you play anything other than the Thief? It has the most traditional mechanic of all the classes, and I wonder if that’s given you this idea that it’s a button mashing game*. And did you try multiple races? You said the Thief story was uninspired but there’s multiple Thief stories in the game thanks to race/character selection choices.
Yeah, I played a Ranger through the first area. I think I got to about 12-14th level. Frankly, I didn’t find it to help my experience much. Again, way too limited an arsenal during combat.

Switch to axe/warhorn, fire off the warhorn buff + the bird strike, make one axe attack that gives my pet’s next attack a Weakness condition. Switch to sword/torch for close-up work, chuck the torch on the way in for big damage, drop down one of my traps (usually flame trap), make sure I use Serpent’s Strike wisely to avoid any big hits. I can use Hornet Sting (leap out, swaps into leap back in+cripple) either offensively or defensively depending on my situation.
Ok, I can see where we differ here.

I understand that weapon switching is a big part of their combat design. The problem, for me, was that it felt uncomfortable - and I felt the delay upon switching worked against the intended goal of having switching be a primary part of the game.

So, I basically just picked a single weapon and never saw a big need for anything more. All PvE fights for both my classes were very doable with just one weapon set. I won’t claim I did particularly well in PvP - but I think I won around 50% of my fights - basically just optimising a few attacks.

My experience on the Thief suggested it’s a damn hard profession to get to grips with. Up until you get weapon swaps, it’s pretty dull and I struggled to like dagger/dagger or pistol/pistol, but being able to swap between them made it a lot better. The shortbow is awesome and the class has some pretty cool movement shenanigans, but the energy-style mechanic really didn’t sit very well with me.
I felt the same way. It’s possible that the game evolves in a way I’m not seeing, and that “weapon switching” is enough to make it much better. I just had a rough time getting comfortable with it.

I thought the “steal power” ability was crappy and gimmicky.

Finally, here’s a decent article about power progression and GW2’s approach: http://www.darkademic.co.uk/blog?id=202
Ok… I’ll check it out. I did spend quite a few hours reading about GW2 before beta.

I was really quite convinced it was for me.

1747

I can totally see where you’re coming from if you’re a “power progression” gamer. It really is a case of the game not being for you if that’s your overriding interest in MMOs.

Me, I raided because I enjoyed playing with friends, and until I burned out I enjoyed the experience of the various dungeons and encounters. Before the boss fights disappeared into the abyss of overly-complex strict mechanics it was entertaining to me to have these epic encounters. The gear was cool of course but not my primary reason for playing.

The awesome skill system was in reference to GW1 - it’s a very “card game” approach to things and once you dig into what’s actually possible you see just how deep you can go with the various combinations - both in terms of a single character and with hero synergy.

But yeah, my take-away from your posts is that 1) you’re wedded to the power progression style which means GW2 will struggle to interest you, and 2) you really should try a different profession as the others aren’t based around skill spamming (and I understand the complaints about the Thief - it’s just designed to appeal to a certain set of players).

1748

Fair enough, though it could turn into a LONG talk :)

  1. Removed the “holy trinity” to make all class combinations viable for all content, and created variation within those classes so that (for example) a party of 5 warriors could each play very different and offer something different to the group.
    I understand and appreciate what they’re trying to do.

My problem with their approach is that I actually LIKED the holy trinity. Not because of the tank/healer/dps setup, but because it provided additional tactical gameplay to any given “hard” fight.

I agree that it was getting a bit long in the tooth, and it was time to do something new.

But they’re sort of attacking it from another angle, which is what the trinity does to group play and the social experience.

The primary problem with the trinity is that it DEMANDS something of characters and roles. That’s not cool when you’re trying to get into a dungeon.

But they’re solving the problem by eliminating gameplay WITHOUT actually replacing it with something.

In my opinon, it’s better to provide alternate tactical options - and especially to give players a more flexible way to adjust to challenges.

Since I really enjoy the gameplay of assigning various roles to complex fights, I don’t think it’s an improvement to just let anything fly. Especially not if you also simplify each arsenal - to the extent that I think they’ve done.

That’s what it seems like to me.

  1. Put the focus back on personal skill for combat. This so far seems like a partial success; dodging is a pretty good mechanic, and each class has a few tools for crowd control or interruption of big skills. All classes can be ranged or melee. Combat feels pretty meaty but this is a very personal thing and no two people will have the same opinion.
    This is something I just can’t see that they’ve done. I admit, I haven’t played the game for that long. Only about ~30 hours combined or something. But I honestly can’t say I felt like my personal skill had much to do with anything. Neither my “strategic” skill of planning an efficient character NOR my “tactical” skill of using my arsenal efficiently seemed to come into play. I just didn’t feel that.
  1. Make the game as inclusive as possible. This means not punishing people for having certain class combinations. Rewarding the ones who just want to explore. Rewarding the ones who love crafting. Making it easier for high level players to play with lower level friends. Providing dungeons with multiple ways of playing them depending on the challenge you want. Rewarding people for helping out random strangers.
    This is cool. I like that, but I don’t think it’s unique. I think their crafting system is very boring - and it’s definitely not on par with the really good ones.

But I really like their event system - and I like how they bring people together. Again, not really new - but they’re doing it more than those who tried it before, like Rift and WAR.

  1. Recognise that PVP and PVE do not mix very comfortably and appeal to everyone. So PVE is totally separate from PVP, and PVP is split up into the competitive PVP (equal teams, equal gear) and World vs World (3 sides, server-based combat, “epic” battles, a mix of PVE+PVP gameplay, and a regular matchmaking system to ensure it stays fresh and vaguely even)
    I understand this, but I don’t agree with their solution. I don’t think anyone ever solved this very well.

I really don’t like seperating things, much like I hated it in WoW.

I prefer open world PvP - and I don’t think you need to separate the actual playspaces from each other. I would probably do it by having a “neutral” faction - that didn’t have to be involved in PvP - but where members could easily share the same world, even when the non-neutral factions fought over faction-specific resources.

ArcheAge has some fantastic ideas for how to handle PvP.

  1. Promote teamplay - by ensuring that everyone benefits if you help other people out with kills, resurrections, events, etc.

and finally - and most importantly (for me anyway)
This ties into what you said before, but sure - I like that. Of course, since I’m mostly a solo player - all these things don’t benefit me much, but I can appreciate why some people would love them.

  1. Make content stay relevant and stay interesting with the dynamic events system. It’s an attempt to move away from static questing (which remains in small part in the game) and it’s proving to be a tricky balancing act ensuring that enough events exist to make life interesting without making it absurd. Event chains leading up to big bosses where failure simply means they take a different branch? Events that actually affect the world around you? Events that don’t need breadcrumb quests or specific groups, that you can drop in and follow as much as you want? Events that can be triggered just by chatting to NPCs (no, not questgivers), that can lead you across the zone and really help create a sense of place? Events that can constantly be added by the devs, that are still fun and relevant at higher level regardless of where you are?
    True, many MMOs ruin their own content by making it obsolete too soon. But I’m afraid that content can never really stay fresh. It’s just exhausted too soon to ever be perpetually relevant. Well, not necessarily - but the underpinning MUST be the gameplay and character progression. If you don’t evolve your character - you will not really want to repeat content for the sake of content. At least, that’s my claim - and it’s certainly true for myself.

TL,DR: They’re trying to “fix” what they see as being wrong with MMORPGs. The SWTOR devs might just agree with them.
SWtOR was shit - and it’s not a good example of alternate design.

Maybe it’s just me, but I think WoW/DAoC/EQ/UO (whichever was your first) was fantastic for a LONG time - and I don’t think removing the grind and making everything more accessible is the best way to improve the genre.

Actually, I think any long-term experience NEEDS a fair bit of “grind”. But I don’t think of it as grind, but as the player horizon. Grind is about perception and the subjective experience of being tired of doing something. Absolutely nothing can stay fresh forever - and even GW2 will seem like a grind when you tire of it.

1749

Fair enough :)

I’m not a particularly big fan of the term “power progression”. I think it’s more about perpetual evolution of gameplay variety :)

The best term I can come up with is “the player horizon”. I want to look over the horizon, and see something new that I can get to experience. No, I don’t want to GRIND for it, but it can’t last if I just have it all in a short time.

But, I’d be lying if I said I didn’t care about the power of my character. I think everyone does, to be honest.

1750

They’ve totally added something when removing the holy trinity - they’ve added personal responsibility. Instead of having a tank and a healer, everyone’s a tank, everyone’s a healer. It’s up to the individual to look after themselves and do what they can to help others. It’s up to the individual to pile into a fight to take the pressure off one character, or to know when to use their own character’s (limited) CC abilities at the right moment. Then there’s the combo system which we’ve barely scratched the surface of.

The best bits of WoW aren’t when you get 20 people following the exact script required to kill Dragon #386, it’s when the shit hits the fan and players have to remember how their class works in order to recover. Personal skill at playing their character rather than following a rotation and a boss guide.

Given how punishing some of the dungeons are intended to be, 5 players doing their own thing are going to struggle. But even with some of the more difficult world encounters, small groups of players seemed to naturally understand the teamwork and interplay involved to succeed.

Finally,

I’m not a particularly big fan of the term “power progression”. I think it’s more about perpetual evolution of gameplay variety :)

I don’t see how it has anything to do with variety. It’s called a treadmill for a reason - you’re running and running just to stay in the same spot. You getting phatter loot to go up a tier isn’t evolution, it’s just a gating mechanism to make sure you don’t complete the content quicker than they can push it out.

If it’s just about new content, then GW2’s system seems to be one with a longer life cycle than a traditional MMO. It’s a lot easier to provide content if 1-80 remains relevant at top levels, and events strike me as being a lot easier to create than raid tiers that become obsolete in a few months.

1751

Well, personal responsibility is an integral part of all great encounters.

I’ve played most MMOs out there, and I had 3 years of high-end raiding in WoW. I think it made HUGE demands on the individual player.

The best bits of WoW aren’t when you get 20 people following the exact script required to kill Dragon #386, it’s when the shit hits the fan and players have to remember how their class works in order to recover. Personal skill at playing their character rather than following a rotation and a boss guide.

We need to see challenging GW2 content in action, I think. Unless you know for a fact that the game starts demanding this later on?

I mean, the event encounters until level 16 required NOTHING in this way. It was just ability spamming.

But I agree that it’s great if they’ve managed to incorporate advanced AI - making players adapt on their feet in a truly challenging way.

I never cared for the coordination challenge of WoW - because I always felt like I was waiting for someone else to study and do his job.

Given how punishing some of the dungeons are intended to be, 5 players doing their own thing are going to struggle. But even with some of the more difficult world encounters, small groups of players seemed to naturally understand the teamwork and interplay involved to succeed.

I’m not sure what other MMOs you’ve played, but in my experience - the good ones always required teamplay and coordination.

I don’t see how it has anything to do with variety. It’s called a treadmill for a reason - you’re running and running just to stay in the same spot. You getting phatter loot to go up a tier isn’t evolution, it’s just a gating mechanism to make sure you don’t complete the content quicker than they can push it out.

If this was really true, then there would be no power progression in non-MMOs.

We can certainly agree that most MMOs turn into “pointless treadmills” after a while - but that’s not necessarily what they start out as.

Variety, in this case, is about evolving what your character can do - and this is not just about power. It’s about utility, crafting, housing, PvP’ing - and all of those separate segments of gameplay.

If it’s just about new content, then GW2’s system seems to be one with a longer life cycle than a traditional MMO. It’s a lot easier to provide content if 1-80 remains relevant at top levels, and events strike me as being a lot easier to create than raid tiers that become obsolete in a few months.

As I said, I think content will be exhausted regardless of how much you put into it. Logically, it will.

The underpinning HAS to be something else to keep content interesting, and make it worth doing.

But it’s true, that if you don’t think evolving your character is interesting - and you consider all aspects of growing more versatile and powerful as a mere treadmill - then the “older” paradigm is very, very bad.

I think there’s a reason the strong MMOs were so very popular for so very long, and I don’t think it’s because they start out by stretching content as a treadmill. I think it has to do with quality of content and quality of gameplay.

1752

GW2 is certainly challenging in some areas, particularly when there’s a lot of veteran and champion mobs around. The dungeon is also massively overtuned at the moment so there’s that.

WoW raiding doesn’t require individuality, it requires everyone reading off the same script and following orders. A raid encounter done properly involves 0% deviation and 0% surprise. “Do this then, do that then, then x y z do a b c while the others do e f g”. It’s the antithesis of what I’m talking about.

I still don’t get the power=versatility argument. Since when did a raiding character in WoW become more versatile by virtue of getting better gear? My Enhancement Shaman didn’t suddenly become more versatile in raids as a result of better gear - the numbers just went up and the raid encounter became a few percent easier.

GW2 isn’t abandoning gear completely; there’s still the need to put together sets that match the stats that you want for the style you want to play in. It’s just that if you put a power ceiling in place, then player skill becomes the most important thing. And that way, you can vary the challenge of your events, dungeons, whatever - because they’ll never be able to overgear themselves for the encounter. And challenge is fun.

1753

I can’t deny this, I can just say I don’t see it.

WoW raiding doesn’t require individuality, it requires everyone reading off the same script and following orders. A raid encounter done properly involves 0% deviation and 0% surprise. “Do this then, do that then, then x y z do a b c while the others do e f g”. It’s the antithesis of what I’m talking about.
That is flat out wrong.

Every single class has personal responsibility - and naturally their role will dictate what’s essential.

For tough small group encounters, this was especially varied and demanding. Every player has to perform well in a tough encounter, depending on his role. For a rogue, I needed to maximise DPS and manage my aggro - whilst protecting the healer or the other DPS. This involved using my CC abilities in an optimal way, blinding/gouging mobs - using vanish/feint when appropriate - and optimising my DPS cycle.

For raids - you generally have less flexibility - and it’s true that every player had to keep a close eye on their own individual place and role in the encounter. But it most definitely involved personally doing a good job - or the raid falls about.

I still don’t get the power=versatility argument. Since when did a raiding character in WoW become more versatile by virtue of getting better gear? My Enhancement Shaman didn’t suddenly become more versatile in raids as a result of better gear - the numbers just went up and the raid encounter became a few percent easier.
I’m not sure what you’re talking about here, but it’s not what I’ve been saying. Gear is a small part of the arsenal available during combat.

I’ve said that by expanding the arsenal throughout the development process, you expand the options available during combat - throughout the development experience. In GW2, you’ve seen most things by level 30.

Gear is just one avenue of progression - and it’s not the only part of the player horizon I’m seeking. But having gear do different things in different ways, means the strategic aspect of developing your build is richer - and you can have more “builds” available as a means of an expanded horizon.

GW2 isn’t abandoning gear completely; there’s still the need to put together sets that match the stats that you want for the style you want to play in. It’s just that if you put a power ceiling in place, then player skill becomes the most important thing. And that way, you can vary the challenge of your events, dungeons, whatever - because they’ll never be able to overgear themselves for the encounter. And challenge is fun.
Maybe I haven’t seen enough of the gear - but I didn’t see gear having interesting procs or unique powers. Something that compliments specific builds or approaches to combat.

But you’re focusing on gear as the only thing lacking in GW2.

I’m talking about stuff like:

Character arsenal/options during combat (EQ2/WoW being good examples)
Open world PvP (Darkfall, EVE, Ultima Online, ArcheAge)
Housing (Vanguard, Ultima Online)
Mounts (Most others)
Intricate crafting (Vanguard, EQ2, UO)
Political/resource system (EVE, ArcheAge)
Loot progression (Most others)
Engaging storyline (LOTRO, TSW)

All those things have been handled much, much better in other MMOs.

Naturally, just my opinion.

1754

You were constantly harking back to the WoW endgame. The “power progression” is at its peak there, you’re no longer collecting gear to keep up with your level, you’re on the raid tier treadmill instead. And there is no gear in WoW that increases your versatility. The whole endgame concept is simply about increasing your numbers in order to be able to complete content. And by max level, you’ve gotten all your abilities.

Gear is just one avenue of progression - and it’s not the only part of the player horizon I’m seeking. But having gear do different things in different ways, means the strategic aspect of developing your build is richer - and you can have more “builds” available as a means of an expanded horizon.

Maybe I haven’t seen enough of the gear - but I didn’t see gear having interesting procs or unique powers. Something that compliments specific builds or approaches to combat.

They use the rune system to do that - gems that’ll add/alter things like strength or length of certain buffs or debuffs, for example. First one I saw was something that affected bleeds.

I guess I can’t really think of “having gear do different things in different ways” as being something I’ve actually experienced in an MMORPG. What exactly did you have in mind?

But you’re focusing on gear as the only thing lacking in GW2.

Not really - I was talking about power progression.

I’m talking about stuff like:

Character arsenal/options during combat (EQ2/WoW being good examples)
Open world PvP (Darkfall, EVE, Ultima Online, ArcheAge)
Housing (Vanguard, Ultima Online)
Mounts (Most others)
Intricate crafting (Vanguard, EQ2, UO)
Political/resource system (EVE, ArcheAge)
Loot progression (Most others)
Engaging storyline (LOTRO, TSW)

All those things have been handled much, much better in other MMOs.

Naturally, just my opinion.

Options during combat… meh, I’d take GW2 over EQ2/WoW any day. Giving a character a million abilities isn’t exciting, it’s irritating. A smaller, more focused number where button mashing or a ‘rotation’ (jesus christ) isn’t the optimal thing in 99% of situations? Great. Then you add in the ability to change this to suit whenever you feel like it.

Open world PVP is usually pretty terrible. I know some people like it but most implementations of it have been awful in a game that attempts to give equal weighting to PVE. Take WoW for example: Hillsbrad (mindless zerg), ganking (zero-risk PKing), or really shit Open PVP zones (Silithis, Plaguelands towers). Some people like it more for the sense of risk which is a thing and that’s fine, but open world PVP is the ginger stepchild of good PVP.

Housing: There’s an entire player home instance that gets different inhabitants and stuff as you progress through your personal story. I suspect it needs some fleshing out, though.

Mounts: This is a lazy criticism of a game that removes the need for long travel times (because it’s one of the most obvious ways a subscription MMO draws out ‘content’) by adding in a robust waypoint system. The game is designed around not needing mounts.

Intricate crafting: It’s a better-than-standard crafting system with lots of “nice to haves” like the discovery system, the fact that you could level to 80 purely from crafting XP, and the way the queue speeds up if you’re building multiple items. It’s a decent system.

Political/resource system: Eh, it’s not an open world PVP game, so this stuff goes into WvWvW.

Loot progression: Been done

Engaging storyline: Massively variable. Some seem to be terrible. Some are quite fun.

1755

Dude, how on earth could you think GW2 was the right game for you? :)

Judging by your posts, you ARE very gear/skill progression oriented player that values grind a lot. GW2 is an exactly opposite kind of game, which becomes quite obvious from reading about for like 5 minutes.

Frankly your posts here just look like trolling attempts again to be honest - you are bored with Diablo and found another game/thread to troll.

1756

My goal with GW2 is very much oriented towards fun and casual play. My years of hardcore raiding are well and truly finished (WoW 2004 to 2009) and my lifestyle won’t allow that type of devotion any more.

So for me GW2 is perfect as I now play with a bunch of casual friends. I am interested in the world building and lore of GW2 more than anything else. I have also read the GW2 novels to get some background and relate to what I see within the game.

1757

I like progression but I’m done with grind and I’m done with the illusion of progression (i.e. numerical increases to match the monster numerical increases, ala the great treadmill). GW2 is providing me several things that other MMOs do not:

  1. Skill-based play. I have to actually pay attention to what I’m doing, not memorize a script/sequence and hit 123|123|4|123|123|4|123|123|5|4 or whatever. Rotations are boring. Playing musical chairs in raids is boring.

  2. I can play with different level people. It’s a big deal because out of my group of friends I play games with, we all have drastically different playtimes. It’s so frustrating not being able to play together (outside of reserving alts strictly for that purpose or powerleveling) because you’re not the same level. Now if I’m L60 I can go to a L20 area to play with my friends and still get something out of it. I can also hop into…

  3. WvW. Sure, a L20 is not going to be equal to a L80, but at least I’m on the same playing field. I don’t have to grind through 80 levels just to get to the “real game” and start having fun. A huge part of the WvW design for me is that there are things to do as a small group, important things. I don’t like following around the big zerg, but now I can play in a smaller group and raid supply outposts, towers, caravans, etc.

  4. The skills/builds are far far more interesting than in other MMOs. EQ2 is a perfect example of throwing 4 hotbars full of abilities at you but leaving it all dull as dirt. Having a 3s cooldown attack that does 30 damage and a 5s that does 50 and a 10s that does 100 is not interesting gameplay. It’s just a matter of getting the rotation to maximize DPS and sticking with that forever. I’ve put together some awesome builds via the character builders that I can’t wait to play. Some of them just look effective, some I think are very strange/off the wall, but there’s some cool synergies with the various traits/utilities that I think will catch people off guard.

  5. No more holy trinity/aggro based gameplay. Holy fuck, I was sick of this in EQ. I tolerated it in DAOC. I was practically puking my guts out from it in WoW. I WILL NOT PLAY THAT PARADIGM AGAIN. It’s old, it’s stale, it’s been the game mechanic for MMOs for 13 years now. I can’t take it anymore.

  6. Player skill vs gear grind. I hate WoW BGs/Arenas where I roflstomp (or in turn get roflstomped) due to gear differentials. The player skill cap is so fucking low that it just becomes a spreadsheet duel. Sum the columns and win! If your sum isn’t high enough, just keep grinding! Yay! That being said, I’m still interested in gear because I want to customize certain stats, it’s just no longer about getting MORE stats than anyone else.

I get that the game isn’t going to be for everyone. A lot of Diku veterans especially are going to struggle because it’s a pretty big paradigm shift in a lot of ways. But by God the game certainly is for me.

1758

Yep, I’m the same way. I login to each weekend test to look around, check out what’s changed, then log right back out.

1759

I can understand that :)

It definitely seems like a game more directed at casual play, where you don’t have to invest yourself in a big way.

I wouldn’t want to do a repeat of WoW myself, as I wasted a ridiculous amount of time trying to optimise DPS and commit to raids.

So, in all honesty, I both want and DO NOT want a real evolution of the genre to fit my interests and playstyle.

Thankfully, the only game that could potentially do that is ArcheAge - and that’s several years off still.

I better back out of the thread, as we’re already back to difference of opinion = trolling.

It should be out soonish, and I hope you guys are going to have fun.

I’ll be kicking it for a bit with The Secret World, though I don’t see it lasting more than a couple of months for me. Still, it surprised me with its strong atmosphere and strong writing :)

1760

I’m a hardcore gamer in terms of where I want the player skill cap to be in the game. I want a high ceiling where I can really excel at a particular class and continually find ways to improve, and there’s where all the Diku-style MMOs fall flat for me. Instead of a high player skill cap what we have is a time investment cap, which I guess makes business sense if you want to charge people $15 every month. That is the kind of “hardcore” I’m just not interested in.

If a game is fun and engaging I will happily sink piles of hours into it, but I don’t want it to require that I devote X hours every day in order to keep up with the gear treadmill. That just has no appeal to me. I guess I want a “harcore” game without the “hardcore grind” and associated required time investments.