Yeah, I think the HoI3 idea was that there was a lot of detail, but you didn’t have to deal with it if you didn’t want to, since you could hand it off to the AI at whatever scale you wanted. Writing an AI that will work with you without driving you nuts is another story entirely.
Yea, it was a good idea but never really panned out. Ironically, I think they’d be better able to pull it off now, now that they have Wiz doing the AI coding for them. In EU4, I’m continually impressed with my vassals’ ability to coordinate with me, especially with the latest expansion.
Still, I think HOI4 has a much better approach. Rearranging the OOB and microing air wings was just a tedious chore and the weather and logistics systems were detailed but never implemented well, even after three expansions worth of improvement.
I utterly hate the UI and overall look. And in this case I’m not just an hater in general. CK2 and EU4 have a very good look (though I’d do without the 3D models and just use counters on those games too. I’d pay for a DLC if it was possible).
But this one just looks hideous. To me a wargame of this kind should have a look that is immersive, even if you don’t expect immersion from these kinds of games.
I’d do without the 3D, with very stylized maps that had a sleek retro feel. With advanced controls and good animations, but still with a retro feel.
For me the perfect HoI game would look like this, for example:
Just exactly that minimal look reproduced with a good, animated UI. Or, even better, like an ink map as if drawn manually, UI included. It would be amazing.
I liked the look of the EU2 engine (used in HoI 1/2) best since the early version of Paradox 3D just looked hideous.
However, CK2 and EU4 looked quite nice, imo, so I hope we see something similar in HoI4.
I can’t really take issue with that zoomed out view of europe.
That might be neat for an indie game, like Unity of Command, but for a mass-market franchise, you can forget about this style.
Personally, I can’t stand looking counters for long, especially not on a 3D map.
rezaf
Actually that’s the best feature of the game AND it’s mortal sin.
HoI3 is basically a game where you can do nothing beside moving counters.
Tech Tree - Can’t do a whole lot, since if you research something ahead of times things slow down so much that it’s basically the same as if you just wait and do nothing.
Declare War - Can’t. The game’s “history” is a cage within a sandbox, you cannot stray and explore alternatives. Who you can or cannot attack is hardcoded into fixed states. You have basically zero leverage on these states, so you can only follow the funnel.
Alliances - Can’t. The influences other countries have on yours are MUCH stronger than whatever influence you can apply yourself. So again it’s like a boat that is driven by the river, and not by you.
Politic screen - beside swapping once in a while between an handful of basic bonuses, nothing else can be done here.
HoI3 is basically the game that plays itself. If cutscenes and scripted sequences are the bane of modern shooters, this is the equivalent for modern wargames.
If you remove the pointless micromanagement of the economy sliders, supply and trade (which are really insane if you really want to do them manually) the game basically plays itself. You can just watch and experience frustration because whatever you try to do is blocked artificially by design.
If I wanted to play a game where I just move counters then there are titles that do that MUCH better.
Detail is utterly pointless if it doesn’t give control (and hopefully meaningful choices). HoI3 is the game where player’s control is at its worst, despite the presumed “detail”.
I think HOI 3 was better game than HOI 2, but the EU4 engine is significantly better than either game. I find HOI3 fun to muck around with but don’t expect to have a good opponent or a bug free experience.
I disagree about research, I think it was one of the better parts of the game.
That’s a bit harsh, the only nations that can research everything are the US which are super boring to play anyway and Germany after you’ve pretty much won the game. For the crappier majors like Italy or Japan or stronger minors like Romania there are plenty of interesting choices in the tech tree.
Unmodded HoI3 might not let you go on “Battleships for Bhutan” style rampages but joining the allies as Brazil and kicking Italy out of Africa or playing an axis aligned Argentina or Chile and waging a submarine war or conquering South America are possible if you start in 1936.
IMO the major flaw of HoI3 is that while can increase IC and gain more leadership by conquering stuff there are no auto-generated leaders and politicians for small nations. Even if you manage to reach major status you’re still bottle necked by that.
Leaving production sliders on auto is always a bad idea that results in wasted IC and avoidable dissent and if you use auto trade you’ll run out of oil and rares by 1941 as Japan or Italy. It would be nice if Paradox finally got that right in HoI4.
The problem with ink maps and such is that they’re not actually that informative. Paradox is trying to make a map type that you don’t necessarily need to change off of every time, so you can get a sense of province terrain, political borders, and weather all in one.
I really like the look of the map. I’m sure I can see a slight curve, its the earth zoomed out. How could that be unrealistic and thus not immersive?
All those screenshots are fire emoji, I was hugely let down by 3 but this looks like they at least understand where they want to go. Whether they can get there is the usual Paradox uncertainty, but I like the goals.
I guess this game is not for me. I see they even removed the NATO counters.
Though “not for me” in this case comes from someone who bought HoI2 + all the expansions available, then HoI2 AoD, then Iron Cross, then Darkest Hour. Then I bought HoI3, plus all its expansions as well.
HoI4? Everything I’m seeing is a disappointment, and looking worse that HoI3 that was also a disappointment.
If Paradox ported HoI2 AoD to the new engine I’d toss money at them. This new thing? Nope. And I’m pretty sure I’m not alone thinking this.
If you think the first looks better than the second I don’t know what to say then.
http://www.incgamers.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/08/hearts-of-iron-iv-4.jpg
http://static2.gamesrocket.com/ga/images/product_images/1496/images/screenshots/Hearts-of-Iron-3-Semper-Fi_nxw4c1b6afa53715.jpg
And if I had any doubts left about considering a purchase:
is there an option ingame to use counters all the time rather than sprites?
Dev: No there isn’t.
There is a large overlap between this crowd and people who only want a 2d map as well. These people I am sad to say we will never be able to make happy with the release of hoi4. A 2d game is possible to make, but its not a game anyone in the team wants to make, or that has a chance of selling as much as a nicer looking 3d one.
HRose - they are not going for the gronard NATO people. If you want rectangle symbols for WWII with hexes there’s a lot of other games that will do that better than HOI IV. What Paradox is doing is making a WW2 game for the people who like CK and HOI style of gameplay. Trying to force them to do what “you” want would end up making a mediocre game that only half hits the Paradox dynamic and half hits Gronardism. They’re doing the right thing and if it makes you angry, play one of the other excellent WWII games that are out there. Gary Grigsby makes some good ones.
HOI3 though I loved it, was a mess. I’m hoping some of the interface changes are to we don’t go blind playing it at 2560x1600. The interface looks good except the buttons are too small. The map is an little dark but we Cana Leah’s adjust those types of settings on our own.
To be fair, the HoI3 shot looks zoomed in to a tactical level while the HoI4 shot looked at a strategic level.
I see where you are coming from. I suspect that if they went the way you want HRose then they would lose sales. Perhaps it won’t be as “hardcore” a wargame as others, however I don’t feel guilty over having amazing visuals in a wargame.
To each their own, I can relate to feeling disappointed when a sequel to a series you enjoy doesn’t go in the direction you want.
That does kinda bother me. I thought the counters were more informative in general than sprites about the composition of units in a province.
I guess we’ll have to agree to disagree on the map, though. I think usability vastly trumps “immersion” any day. You’re never going to get immersed in a game that’s about pushing counters because no one in reality pushed counters around on a map.
It remains to be seen, but the devs’ position has been that they’re better able to convey information using the graphics than they were counters, especially in stacking scenarios. There’s some livestreams out there that demonstrate a pretty cool force summarization effect depending on your zoom level, etc.
I always played with counters in HOI3 but that was because the sprites were utter shit at conveying info. They were ugly too. :) I’m reserving judgement on HOI4’s “sprites” until I can see it for myself.
Counters were informative and very useful, removing them will make it very hard to get a clear picture. Also its very hard at a glance to see where units are going with sprites!
Dont like it much…
No, we’re disagreeing because you misunderstood me.
“Immersion” for me is to have the paper map and counters like generals used to plot wars, instead of having some kind of futuristic globe painted with fluorescent lights and the ugliest 3D models ever (that are not needed to sell the game, they are needed to sell the DLCs). This also gives the best usability.
Immersion instead is the 3D fancy map with nicely sculpted hills. I wrote a longer explanation on Paradox forums but it’s a basic lesson of game design that a game that works on discrete elements (like hexes, or provinces) also works best in 2D. Whereas an “analog” representation works better in 3D (like seamless movement, or complex line of sight).
HoI is a strategic game, about rules and discrete states. You always get much better and clearer information by looking at an icon that tells you the exact terrain type and bonuses, than looking at a fancy 3D map where you wonder if a low hill counts as a hill or a plain.
If we cared for usability for sure we wouldn’t go after an useless 3D map.
It proves nothing. As I said 2D is always better at conveying info with this type of game. But if Paradox admits blowing all their budget and time allocation to do the models right, then it’s obvious that counters suck. Not because “counter suck”, but because they didn’t get enough work to be good.
And another truly terrible thing: HoI4 will have no names for provinces.
Here’s another brilliant explanation by a dev:
Even if we gave each province a name it doesnt matter. Nobody (except maybe 5 ppl with photographic memory) is going to know where something is just based on a name where there are 10,000 names out there.
So it doesn’t matter.
And it REALLY doesn’t matter, as long it’s obvious I’m a rarity of gamer, and that Paradox is simply steering their game in a different direction. But we’ll see in the end how it goes. I’m convinced that HoI4 will be worse than 3. And when I say this I don’t imply “for me”, but that this game is going to be bad even for those other players out there. So we’ll see.
Oh, of course.
These past few days I’ve been in love with this (as I’m in love with all things that go even beyond epic and challenge human limits): http://www.cesspit.net/misc/kursk.gif http://www.cesspit.net/misc/moscow2.gif
Some stats?
244,620 hexes
8,000/9,000 counters total
1 turn = 2 hours
Biggest campaign is 544 turns long
versus War in the East:
26,000 hexes
4.000 counters
1 turn = 1 week
Biggest campaign is 224 turns long
Or looking up the crazy rules of Star Fleet Battles. Or a really hard to find pdf that I had to hack the url manually to find (considered the best and most complex ruleset for that stuff): http://www.wrg.me.uk/WRG.net/History/OLDWRG/Ancients007.pdf
Or reading the freely available OCS rules and the module on Vassal of this: http://cf.geekdo-images.com/images/pic1416125_lg.jpg
Or the other huge Where Eagles Dare linked to Devil’s Cauldron, that also are now with free pdf rules and Vassal: http://cf.geekdo-images.com/images/pic1337498_lg.jpg
This is my main problem with it as well. Plus they want to represent tech level of the unit with the model. Sounds like a nightmare of squinting at little drab/camo 3d models sitting on a drab terrain background trying to figure out is that an infantry level 2 or level 3?
Bad wargame design; clarity us important and iconography, numbers, letters and direction arrows should be the way to go. TBH I would even gave preferred they used simple iconography instead of sprites in the EU series.
HoI3 had it exactly right. And as for losing sales I very much doubt it I believe hearts of iron series sells better than all their other games combined, and when you go read peoples AARs what do you see pretty much 100% of the time? Counters. Why? Because it looks better and conveys more information faster at a birds eye view.
Yeah, but Paradox seems to be making their titles more accessible to somebody who has never played their titles before. To be accessible it needs to be visually appealing at a first look. For somebody who has no idea of the difference between a square box with a cross in it vs a square box with a dot in it, counters are a complete turn-off. But when they see little people and little artillery pieces it makes perfect sense.
As some others have said, I’m holding out to see how it’s actually implemented. Maybe it sucked in HoI3 (never used the sprites at all so couldn’t say) but Paradox is getting good at making games convey information, I’m hopeful they will be able to produce something pleasing and informative.