Ben- What are you talking about? Did you want the cops to start the engagement by using spikes at 86? Once they hit the lights, the speed went up. Spike strips are pretty extreme measures, right up there with ramming and shooting out the tires.
It’s not necessarily lethal force, no matter what Gideongamer underlines. The idea is just to force them off the road and thus they will slow down. It’s not a matter of deserved to die and this wasn’t the punishment, but Christ, you can’t let owning a car capable of going over 90 be a get out of jail free card.
We’ll never know the passenger’s specifics, but the thing is we do know in your hostage example. We know that the hostage is a hostage. Your analogy is ridiculous.
And as I said, that’s just one of many other options they could have tried. They could have simply followed her, discretely, or possibly even by air, until she stopped. She has to stop eventually. And if she thinks the police have given upon pursuit, she probably would have slowed down some, or even gotten off the highway altogether.
We’ll never know the passenger’s specifics, but the thing is we do know in your hostage example. We know that the hostage is a hostage. Your analogy is ridiculous.
So what? Are you saying that short of sure knowledge of a person’s innocence, their life is forfeit if the police want it to be? I’d hate to live in a world run by you, where instead of “innocent until proven guilty” we have “guilty until too dead to be proven otherwise.”
The PIT Manuever (what according to the newstape was used in the incident) is not recommended at high speeds. At lower speeds it causes the car to spin out and stall. According to the tape the officer did as he was directed… I’d say it wasn’t very good direction in that case.
I don’t see any easy solutions in cases like this. Roadblock maybe… that adds a considerable incentive to stop although it raises the manpower necessary and inconvieniences other travellers, and depending on the road geography can be very difficult to set up.
The police weren’t trying to kill them, but you have to admit that there’s a huge difference between a hostage and a passenger in a car that is fleeing police. Is having a passenger also carte blanche to flee from police?
Following her discretely? What if she is going out of state? You can’t just call in an unmarked car to follow every speeder home.
It’s a very difficult situation, but the difficulty was caused by the driver.
They rammed them off the road at 100 mph. When a police officer fires a weapon at a suspect, it’s generally not because they want to kill them. And it is possible to disable someone with a firearm. But as soon as you go down that road you must accept the very real possibility that someone is going to die, which is why shooting at a suspect is considered to be “lethal force.” I don’t see how running someone off the road at 100 mph is any different–not even a little.
but you have to admit that there’s a huge difference between a hostage and a passenger in a car that is fleeing police. Is having a passenger also carte blanche to flee from police?
So in your mind, there are only two solutions to this problem: say “Aw, shucks,” let the suspect get away, and go home; or kill them.
And no, I don’t think there is a significant difference between a hostage and a potentially innocent bystander when it comes to dealing out death.
Following her discretely? What if she is going out of state?
Other states also have police. It’s not like the Dukes of Hazzard, where she can just run to the county line and then turn around and thumb her nose at the cops. They can easily have police from the next state waiting for her.
You can’t just call in an unmarked car to follow every speeder home.
Yeah, that’s way too much of an inconvenience. Better to just run them off the road.
Exactly how are they going to get air support to follow her if the initial car – the one with the flashy lights that isn’t exactly discreet – doesn’t pursue her? Do you think every marked police vehicle should be followed by an unmarked one or something?
Uh, Ben, helicopters/cops/unmarked cars are not unlimited. There are other demands on police resources.
the cops may not have know about the passenger’s existance
it’s reasonable to believe the passenger is not a captive of the driver.
The driver was putting civilians at risk by driving 100 mph, if cops are given the choice between gambling with my life or the life of someone currently committing a goddamn felony you’re right that I want them run off the road. Protecting the other drivers is a pretty important goal here.
That was a very poor decision by the lead car. It resulted in a fatal crash for the fleeing car and at those speeds the officer in question could just as easily have wound up dead from trying that maneuver.
High speed pursuits are almost always justified and in this day and age generally very well run by the relevant law enforcement agencies. This is a rather glaring exception to the rule.
According to the Ohio State Highway Patrol’s research, running someone off the road at high velocity has a very high risk of injuring or killing suspects, officers and innocents.
According to the National Highway Traffic Safety Administration, 314 people were killed during pursuits in 1998, the lowest of the previous four years. Of the 314 deaths, 2 were police officers, 198 were individuals being chased and 114 innocents uninvolved in the chase.
They also point to a study that interviewed 146 jailed suspects involved as drivers in high-speed chases. 70% of the drivers said they would have slowed down if police had terminated the pursuit or even backed off a short distance. 53% said they were willing to run at all costs from the police in a pursuit.
Basically, unless the police know the person they’re chasing has committed a violent felony and can be shown to be a likely threat to the populace if immediate high-speed pursuit, versus an alternative such as backing off and using other means of surveilence, is not used, then I see no reason for a high-speed pursuit, let alone using a PIT manuever at highway speeds.
Well, if this chase wasn’t important enough to warrant more police resources, then it probably wasn’t important enough to kill two people over, either.
the cops may not have know about the passenger’s existance
That’s possible, in which case I’d remind you that this entire sidetrack is secondary to my main argument, which is that the driver did not do anything that warranted lethal force. The fact that there was a passenger in her car just makes an already questionable decision on the part of the police even worse.
it’s reasonable to believe the passenger is not a captive of the driver.
So he should have… what? Jumped out? Grabbed the wheel? At 100 mph?
The driver was putting civilians at risk by driving 100 mph, if cops are given the choice between gambling with my life or the life of someone currently committing a goddamn felony you’re right that I want them run off the road. Protecting the other drivers is a pretty important goal here.
Nothing the woman had done (speeding, driving without a license, resisting arrest) was a felony. At worse, she was guilty of reckless endangerment, which is a misdemeanor in most states. Either way, I fail to see how a high speed chase with car-to-car ramming constitutes “protecting other drivers.” If public safety was the priority (rather than apprehending the suspect), they should have broken off pursuit.
I agree that the execution was obviously lacking in this case, but that interview with criminals is worthless. So if they got away, they’d slow down? No shit. And Derek, running from the police is evidence that they have committed a more serious crime. Most people who get caught speeding just eat the ticket.
Backing off and using alternative methods may not be available in every situation. I think the police are in a better position to evaluate the availability of those options than we are.
Its not like an investigator stealthily following a suspect they can fairly casually keep a tail on. Nor are helicopters necessarily available to chase.
What is the best way to get otherwise minor traffic violators to do the right thing and pull over, rather than attempt to speed off and potentially turn it into a public endangering chase?
In this case they knew literally everything about the people in the car, right? What are they going to do, go on the run from the law even though they haven’t done anything and they’ve committed no crimes? Arrest 'em at home, or just put out a warrant.
