The American Revolution is a good one, followed maybe by the American Civil War?

Hmm, I wasn’t aware that the King George III was an abstraction and generalization of “power”, I thought he was a specific, identifiable, falsifiable source of power. Silly me.

Maybe gently but yes. Children do need to learn how to be civilized.

Obviously it varies and that was part of the good Doctor’s point as well: you raise your children to be what they want to be, in a way that flows around their burgeoning personality, and not (without at least some suspicion and a raised eyebrow from onlookers):-

“I’m raising my daughter to be a violinist”
“I’m raising my daughter to be straight”.
“I’m raising my son to be a Communist.”
“I’m raising my son to be a Catholic.”
“I’m raising my daughter to be a Muslim.”
“I’m raising my daughter to be a capitalist.”
“I’m raising my son to be a Feminist.”

Can you see it yet? (And to close off the other bolt-hole you may wish to escape down as the horrific truth dawns on you, this was the ladies of Huffpo, not some obscure, skanky, overtly man-hating corner of feminism.)

You are definitely afraid of something.

Yes, I’m fucking terrified that we’re sleepwalking toward Armageddon. We really can’t afford to indulge nonsense shit mind-viruses any more.

Over-arching ideologies based on the analysis of social relations in terms of “power” are fine as speculative interests, there’s usually some grain of truth to them, it’s all grist for the mill, all good; but it’s no longer viable to institute the legal and political structuring of society based on taking such ideologies for granted as true just because their dictionary definition says they’re about a nice thing, or because raising your voice against them could lose you your job or prevent you from making piles of cash.

This is liberalism: the presumption that people ought to be allowed freely to go their own way until and unless they can be FALSIFIABLY DEMONSTRATED to have done harm, be doing harm, or be highly likely to do harm. The core rights of life, freedom of speech, of property, freedom of assembly, all the basic “negative” human rights all flow logically from this seed idea, which is encapsulated in its legal form as, “innocent until proven guilty”.

Because of proper elasticity in the concept of “harm”, because technology introduces new dimensions for possible harm, because even after these core rights are guaranteed there’s an open question regarding what society can do in a more positive sense to help people, beyond maintaining these core rights, liberalism can have Left (Progressive) and Right (Conservative) forms, and we can have as much jolly poo-flinging as we want, and swear at each other till we’re blue in the face - the exchange is healthy, and is likely to gradually zero in on good ways to run things.

But the absolute enemy of a politically liberal DISCOVERY PROCESS like this, is the idée fixe type of ideology I’ve been banging on about, whether it’s in straightforward traditional religious forms or quasi-religious secular forms like the modern “social justice” movement.

Yes, I’m terrified, I’m terrified like this (which I consider to be one of the most powerful and profoundly horrific scenes in all of cinema, and a scene that coincidentally establishes Angelina Jolie as a damn good actress despite some ups and downs in her career):-

https://youtu.be/MhDAdPw0jTM?t=1h15m15s

I see this clamp of doublethink, fear and conformity all around me in society at the moment in all sorts of areas, and it’s getting worse, not better. And we have nuclear weapons, and we have biological weapons of mass destruction. And we’re just a lonely pearl floating in the Abyss.

I am not sure what your jargon is really worth, but I’ll just say that King George III is just a symbol, a representation, not an actual specific source of power.

“I’m raising my son to be a Feminist.”

You keep tacking this on there. It’s like you think any word with an -ism at the end automatically constitutes some sort of evil thought-framework that is undesirable. Of course it probably doesn’t help that you keep redefining feminism to suit your purposes instead of just using it’s basic meaning. I mean you would agree that you should raise your child to beleive that all people are equal regardless of the race colour or creed, so I guess I don’t know why you would exclude gender.

Yes, I’m fucking terrified that we’re sleepwalking toward Armageddon. We really can’t afford to indulge nonsense shit mind-viruses any more.

I think you might not have very good perspective on the real world. I think maybe you are breathing your own exhaust.

But the absolute enemy of a politically liberal DISCOVERY PROCESS like this, is the idée fixe type of ideology I’ve been banging on about, whether it’s in straightforward traditional religious forms or quasi-religious secular forms like the modern “social justice” movement.

Liberalism is just another ideology. Of course government should operate pragmatically for the benefit of society rather than slavishly following some fixed idea. Is the constitution a good starting point or a holy document, for example? Were the founders demigods? Is taxation fundamentally evil? Hmmm.

That type of thing was the basis of Abolitionism. And resisting the Holocaust. And efforts to prevent slaughter of minorities in Yugoslavia, Africa, Asia, and the Middle East.

Honestly, it sounds like you simply don’t believe in the existence of institutional injustice.

I’m pretty that sure he and everyone else here know what SJW means. But your constant refrain of “intersectionality” is befuddling because you’re using a rather idiosyncratic definition.

The usual meaning is something like “understanding someone who is X and Y takes more than understanding X and Y in isolation.” So for instance, understanding black viewpoints and gay viewpoints is not sufficient to understand the viewpoints of black gays. Likewise, understanding “Internet users” plus “gamers” doesn’t mean you understand the QT3 forum. They aren’t simply additive. Which makes perfect sense.

Your definition, on the other hand, is an inscrutable epistemological black hole.

The definition is merely the individuals perception of what it means. In practice we end up with:

The racist accusation is born from his views and highlighting homophobia in Africa, his work with LGBTS in Africa, his protest of homophobia in the Jamacian ragga scene, and his statements on homophobia in Islamic countries, and his work supporting Muslim LGBTs. How can a gay man campaigning for LGBT issues be racist? In their eyes it is simple, he condemned the actions of homophobic non-whites. If he uses critical language against non-whites he is labelled a racist as he is white.

The whole ugly shebang in jargon filled detail.

http://www.tmponline.org/2013/04/03/on-hate-peter-tatchell/

Do note the date. None of this is new.

I know Qt3 isnt a safe space, and I know the Level 11 SJWs don’t frequent this forum or thread. Hence no one launched into a long accusation of Tatchells “crimes” against Muslims and Trans folk, interspersed with constant reminders that as an “old white man” Tatchells life and work isnt worth shit.

Are you seriously surprised that upstart political activists are eating their own? Because that’s the fate of pretty much all upstart political activists, from Leon Trotsky to Eric Cantor to Mother Teresa. They all die heroes or live long enough to become monsters.

It’s more about purging and less about activism.

It’s more about purging and less about activism.

Mother Theresa as a monster? Linky please.

Start at Hitchens I guess.

I quite agree with this generally and even that it’s getting worse. But I’m not afraid of some college student splitting their time between the Steven Universe fan club and protesting GMO food in the cafeteria – I’m honestly terrified that Donald Trump is right now, in the real world, the leading candidate to have his finger on those nuclear weapons. And what it means when someone like Trump can get so much support from the general population.

No, he was an actual specific powerful person, who’s living word could set human beings into action.

The kind of “power” canvassed in the kind of ideology I’m talking about is a vague and usually unfalsifiable idea about social relations. It is precisely the same sort of extension of terms that you get in every ideology of this kind, where a term like “exploitation” or “harassment” has on the one hand a specific, concrete, falsifiable meaning in ordinary discourse, and on the other hand a more esoteric, unfalsifiable, speculative meaning, in terms of the Theory.

As I said, none of those kinds of ideas are entirely without merit, it’s the context in which they’re taken for granted as true, and in terms of which people give themselves license to pre-judge other human beings, and set their individual choices at naught, that’s problematic. It’s when such “critical theories” become untethered to reality testing, when they become “gospel”, that they are dangerous, and lead to exactly the same utterly predictable purge->removal of moderates->bastards taking charge type of situation, each and every time, without fail.

You keep tacking this on there.

And you keep being uncomfortable with the possibility that it belongs there.

It’s like you think any word with an -ism at the end automatically constitutes some sort of evil thought-framework that is undesirable.

Don’t be silly. I like capitalism. But I still wouldn’t “raise my son to be a capitalist” BECAUSE THE VERY NOTION IS A LUDICROUS AND QUASI-RELIGIOUS IMPOSITION ON A CHILD.

Of course it probably doesn’t help that you keep redefining feminism to suit your purposes instead of just using it’s basic meaning. I mean you would agree that you should raise your child to beleive that all people are equal regardless of the race colour or creed, so I guess I don’t know why you would exclude gender.

Christ soapy, we’ve been through this already: the dictionary definition is irrelevant. The “basic meaning” of the WORD is a different thing form the “basic meaning” of the ACTUAL LIVING SYSTEM OF HUMAN INTERACTIONS, of thought as it plays out, as it acts in the world, as it behaves, as people talk amongst themselves in terms of their theories. The way feminists behave is very often illiberal and inegalitarian: they seek to police speech, to alter the judicial process in an illiberal way; they purge their own, they prejudicially condemn any criticism as necessarily ill-intentioned on account of the bare gender of the critic, or if the critic is of the same sex, on the basis of an idiotic notion like “internalized misogyny”. Everything that happens proves to them that their analysis is correct, nothing could possibly prove them wrong. This is the mode of intersectional “social justice” all-round. Consider a particularly ludicrous example in recent times, the young lady who wore a hijab to test reactions. Everyone was nice to her. Did that lead her to modify her hypothesis? No, the nice behaviour was rationalized away as “overcompensating” for innate racism. The theory was saved! The same kind of doublethink is rampant in every part of the movement, with race, with gender, just as it was earlier with the strictly Marxian versions, with socioeconomic classes (e.g.every criticism is “bourgeois” and therefore to be discounted automatically).

I think you might not have very good perspective on the real world. I think maybe you are breathing your own exhaust.

And I think you are infected by a sort of memetic flu that leads you to rationalize away everything I’m saying, that urges you to intuitively seek for false intellectual equivalences and false moral equivalences, that urges you to intuitively seek to “heresy hunt” and peer into the necessarily black heart of any doubter. All because you’re afraid of being called names - that’s the hook the virus has in your mind. More properly speaking, these kinds of bad replicators hook onto social shaming as their main mechanism of spreading - social shaming that would normally be attached to a specific, falsifiable sense of a boo/hooray word (e.g. “equality”, “rape”, “harassment”, “exploitation” etc.). One doesn’t want to flag agreement with something bad, or disagreement with something good. The mind-virus hooks onto that by smuggling in the broader, Theory-laden senses of these words, while retaining the same social shaming weight to them as was formerly attached to the specific, falsifiable senses of the terms. Bait& Switch (or Motte & Bailey).

Liberalism is just another ideology. Of course government should operate pragmatically for the benefit of society rather than slavishly following some fixed idea. Is the constitution a good starting point or a holy document, for example? Were the founders demigods? Is taxation fundamentally evil? Hmmm.

The considerations I outlined are deeper than that. There has to be some basis of agreement before society can begin, just as there has to be some basis of agreement re. logic before conversation and argument can begin. Democracy as a system of voting people into positions of “authority” on the basis of bare majorities, has to have a foundation of a much bigger majority of people who agree on ground rules. Those ground rules are the basic “negative” human rights. If a large majority don’t agree on those prior to setting up government, then government is just the biggest bully with the biggest guns. If there’s any sense that can be gleaned from Rousseau’s concept of the “General Will”, it’s this, there has to be this basis of deeper, tacit agreement, or the political process can’t even get going.

And if an ideology like feminism seeks to break those ground rules (e.g. “listen and believe”, which stands in blatant contradiction to “innocent until proven guilty”), then it’s no longer liberal and no longer about equality of treatment by any treating agency, any more than the Democratic People’s Republic of Korea is of the people, democratic, or a republic. It’s a dangerous ideology (or rather, of course, potentially dangerous - although feminist nonsense memes like “1 in 5” and “Wage Gap” have managed to get as far as using the President of the United States as their mouthpiece, it is of course mere virtue signalling at the moment, and it would probably take a lot more termite-dining to become clear and present danger, but that’s why I said: early warning).

Of course liberalism is an ideology in a loose sense, but it’s not an ideology in the specific sense I’m talking about, in the sense in which ideologies all share the same quasi-religious Manichean structure in relation to a speculative, airy-fairy “source of power”.

Is that something I should “believe in” magnet?

Just FYI gurugeorge, it’s pretty talk about this stuff with you when you assert we are just ‘virtue signaling’ and don’t actually believe what we say.

Well, the “white people” meme isn’t going to win over any Trump voters. The hugbox is still playing the white guilt card against people who don’t have any white guilt and have demonised their opponents to the point they don’t understand them.

This meme is the single most stupid thing to come out of identity politics. It just fuels opposition and division.

I don’t follow how this response related to what you quoted? White people meme?

Pretty sure you have to be constantly jacked in to endless Twitter and Reddit gender and race arguments to understand most of pwk’s posts.

You should believe in whatever the evidence shows you. For my part, I think there is ample evidence that some groups (e.g. blacks, women) face certain types of systematic injustice in the US.

Instead, you’ve suggested that a set of conclusions are so dangerous that nobody should believe them. That’s not a rational approach. In fact, your approach is fundamentally indistinguishable from clearly anti-rational beliefs, like Holocaust denial.

So instead of this endless back and forth, how about some actual identity politics issues?

http://www.king5.com/story/news/local/seattle/2016/02/16/man-womens-locker-room-cites-gender-rule/80478058/

This man went into Evans Pool in Seattle and, probably as a politically-motivated protest, entered the women’s locker room, and refused to leave when asked citing the new law that allows people to enter the locker room/bathroom of their choice based on which sex they identify with.

Women alerted staff, who told the man to leave, but he said “the law has changed and I have a right to be here.”

No one was arrested in this case and police weren’t called, even though the man returned a second time while young girls were changing for swim practice.

Meanwhile, in South Dakota, the state senate voted to pass a bill requiring students to use the bathroom that corresponds to their birth sex.

The Senate voted 20-15 to send the bill to Republican Gov. Dennis Daugaard, who initially responded positively to the measure but said last week he’d need to study it more before making a decision.

Advocates say the bill is meant to protect the privacy of students, but opponents say it discriminates against vulnerable adolescents.

Under the plan, schools would have to provide a “reasonable accommodation” for transgender students, such as a single-occupancy bathroom or the “controlled use” of a staff-designated restroom, locker room or shower room.

Republican Sen. David Omdahl urged other legislators Tuesday to support the bill to “preserve the innocence of our young people.”