Classical liberalism is a philosophy that looks at maximizing freedom, particularly individual freedom. It’s not entirely laissez faire especially with many classical proponents advocating for a more active govt (like Hayek, less so Mises) Classical liberty believe strongly in the concept of negative liberty.

Modern liberalism believes in positive liberty and uses govt. coercion for its goals. Modern liberalism is a philosophy for elites where they think they know what is best for people.

Modern liberalism believes in positive liberty and uses government action to solve collective-action problems like the all-too-prevalent tragedy of the commons. Modern liberalism is a philosophy for people who view the modern world and its problems as it is, not as they wish it were.

No, it is very happening. You paint in broad stroke and make connections that aren’t justified and draw conclusions from tidbits.

fixed your post.

What in God’s green fuck does “laissez-faire capitalism” even mean?

You do realize that no classical liberal anywhere, at any time, has ever advocated that “capitalism” be completely free to do whatever the hell it wants to do, right? You can search in vain through Locke, Smith, Hume, Ferguson, Montesquieu, Constant, Say, de Tocqueville, von Humboldt, Goethe, Mill, Bastiat, Gladstone, Cobden, Spencer, Lecky, Acton, von Mises, Hayek, Nozick, Rawls and de Jasay, for the contention that “capitalism” ought to be completely free to do whatever the hell it wants to do, and you won’t find it. The most you’ll find is thought-experiments around the topic. All those writers agree that capitalists must work within a structure of rules and laws of some kind. The contention is only regarding the nature and coverage of those rules and laws.

The contention that classical liberalism does advocate that “capitalism” be completely free to do whatever the hell it wants to do is precisely the Marxist strawman I’ve been talking about.

You can’t even see how quasi-religious Left-wing ideology has hoodwinked you into a distorted view of your own core political philosophy. You are dancing to the tune of Comintern propaganda from the 1930s, and you don’t even know it.

Look, here’s the deal: classical liberalism is an experimental political philosophy that holds the Good Life to be discoverable, and wishes to set the “ground rules” for it to be discovered.

All other forms of politics are what one might call Grand Plan politics, with Populism (the “man with a plan”, the demagogue) at the Centre, Mob Rule on the Left and Authoritarianism on the Right, with the extreme Left and Right coinciding in Totalitarianism (because Mob Rule is actually impossible, and Authoritarianism has no immunity to the whim of the ruler).

How can the Good Life be discovered by a social process? By assuring certain kind of limited “negative” human rights to individuals, so that they may freely discuss, freely associate, freely form all sorts of experimental groupings, in the pursuit of the Good Life as they see it. How is the freedom limited? By a concomitant duty. What is that duty? The duty we all have to refrain from interfering with each other. When is that duty abrogate? When an individual or group is demonstrably (falsifiably) causing harm, has caused harm, or is likely to cause harm. From this flow logically all the basic rights: to life, to freedom of speech, to property, to assembly, etc.

As you can see, there’s a lot of free play in this idea. There’s room for a “conservative” wing (e.g. Nozick, de Jasay) and a “progressive” wing (e.g. Rawls). Why is there this free play? Because there’s some degree of elasticity to the concept of “harm”, because new technology opens up new possibilities for harm, and because it’s an open and arguable question what the State can do beyond maintaining the basic “ground rules”. “Conservative” or Right-wing liberals (libertarians) are more concerned with maintaining the “ground rules” and they emphasize seeing how little government we can get away with while still maintaining a civilized society that is free to seek the Good Life. “Progressive” or Left-wing liberals are more concerned with seeing to what degree government can be used as a tool to help people, to oversee public goods problems, etc., over and above maintaining the “ground rules”. There’s a natural, healthy tension between these two “poles” of liberalism. “Right” and “Left” aren’t really appropriate because “Right” traditionally meant “in favour of special privileges due to ancestry, caste, social position, etc.” and no classical liberals are in favour of any of these. But the terms will do.

But despite disagreement, both libertarian and progressive liberals hold the “negative” rights as core values, and intelligent progressives (such as Rawls) are well aware that there’s (not just a tension but) an outright contradiction between those basic rights and any mandate to attain a specific outcome (any specific outcome attained by fiat law will necessarily involve treating people unequally), so progressivism understands that there’s a trade-off, while libertarianism holds that the trade-off isn’t worth it in the long run. Again, this is an ongoing, viable argument in which it’s often possible to see both sides.

Both libertarians and progressives will also hold to the core idea of falsifiability: unlike quasi-religious ideologies, which draw their concepts of harm from the over-arching structure of ideological reasoning, which involves 1) a source of “power”, 2) social relations involving “oppressor/oppressed” groups defined by their closeness to or distance from the source of “power”, and 3) human behaviour being wholly determined by oppressor/oppressed group membership, classical liberals stick to the idea that the burden of proof is on the person who would propose to relieve themselves of the duty not to interfere. For that burden of proof to be discharged, it must be necessary to point to actual concrete, specifiable harm done by (or highly likely to be done by) living individuals or groups; you cannot persecute people on the basis of some bad word defined in terms wholly internal to some apriori ideological mind palace.

All quasi-religious ideologies like socialism, fascism, communism, the social justice movement, are completely alien to classical liberal thought. You can’t “import bits of” any of these ideas, because they are all corrosive. Why? Because they are all Grand Plans, they believe they have already discovered what the Good Life is, so there’s no need for a social experimental process to discover it, therefore there’s no logical need for the “negative” human rights. If they’re kept, it’s only on a whim that can be reversed tomorrow if someone reinterprets the Holy Text of the ideology impressively enough.

Is that plain enough English for you?

Literally it means “let them do”.

You do realize that no classical liberal anywhere, at any time, has ever advocated that “capitalism” be completely free to do whatever the hell it wants to do, right?

Yup that’s true. Libertarianism is distinct from classical liberalism in that it approaches anarchy much more closely from the right (in a mirror image of communism approaching it from the left).

The contention that classical liberalism does advocate that “capitalism” be completely free to do whatever the hell it wants to do is precisely the Marxist strawman I’ve been talking about.

I think that classical liberalism can absolutely be critiqued for just how little it restrains the potential abs uses and downsides of capitalism. That said, it’s really not what we were talking about and I did not advance any sort of “strawman” on the subject.

You can’t even see how quasi-religious Left-wing ideology has hoodwinked you into a distorted view of your own core political philosophy. You are dancing to the tune of Comintern propaganda from the 1930s, and you don’t even know it.

Good thing I have your revealed truth to guide me now.

All quasi-religious ideologies like socialism, fascism, communism, the social justice movement, are completely alien to classical liberal thought. You can’t “import bits of” any of these ideas, because they are all corrosive. Why? Because they are all Grand Plans, they believe they have already discovered what the Good Life is, so there’s no need for a social experimental process to discover it, therefore there’s no logical need for the “negative” human rights. If they’re kept, it’s only on a whim that can be reversed tomorrow if someone reinterprets the Holy Text of the ideology impressively enough.

Total bunk, disproved by every single first world democracy having successful mixed economies including the US. I agree with 95% of what you said before this bizarre ill considered paragraph. Many components of our economies need to be socialized to be effective and provide benefit to the general population rather than a select few. There is little or no dispute that law enforcement, for example, be socialized. Similarly we do not approve of private armies, preferring the state to maintain one for the common defence. Large tracts of infrastructure is socialized. Things like essential medical care simply do not work for the general population if left purely private profit driven. Education needs to be socialized. There are many things that are for the common good that need to be socialized. Lastly I would argue there needs to exist a social safety net. Of course there is always an ongoing debate as to what and to what extent needs to be socialized.

Beyond that I think everyone should be free to pursue their happiness the way they like assuming they aren’t hurting anyone or breaking any laws (although even then a little law breaking can be a good thing, exposing useless or excessive laws).

As you freak out about a bunch of teenagers protesting in front of their cafeteria because of GMOs and political correctness, in the real world real people are currently on the way to elevating Donald Trump to the most powerful position in the world. With Ted Cruz in second place. There is your quasi-religious Idiocracy – it’s right there – not buried in a study about Buffy the Vampire slayer or whatever.

Also ‘referencing TFA’ … The Force Awakens? Or what is that?

Terrible, but I laughed.

“Let them do capitalism?” Chance would be a fine thing.

Yup that’s true. Libertarianism is distinct from classical liberalism in that it approaches anarchy much more closely from the right (in a mirror image of communism approaching it from the left).

Again, this is skewed nonsense. Libertarianism is Centre-Right if anything, it’s certainly not “Right-wing” in any way comparable with things like racism, nationalism, or the kind of protectionism and crony capitalism the Right is fond of. Libertarianism has nothing to do with anarchy, anarcho-capitalism is the thing that’s to do with anarchy. And that’s not “Right-wing” either.

I think that classical liberalism can absolutely be critiqued for just how little it restrains the potential abs uses and downsides of capitalism. That said, it’s really not what we were talking about and I did not advance any sort of “strawman” on the subject.

You’re just done telling me that classical liberalism is “Right wing” and “laissez faire capitalism”.

I mean, is this just like a drawing on water to you, or what? Do you retain nothing from moment to moment of what you just said five paragraphs before?

Good thing I have your revealed truth to guide me now.

Well I’ve apparently hypnotized you into believing 95% of it ;)

Total bunk, disproved by every single first world democracy having successful mixed economies including the US. I agree with 95% of what you said before this bizarre ill considered paragraph. Many components of our economies need to be socialized to be effective and provide benefit to the general population rather than a select few. There is little or no dispute that law enforcement, for example, be socialized. Similarly we do not approve of private armies, preferring the state to maintain one for the common defence. Large tracts of infrastructure is socialized. Things like essential medical care simply do not work for the general population if left purely private profit driven. Education needs to be socialized. There are many things that are for the common good that need to be socialized. Lastly I would argue there needs to exist a social safety net. Of course there is always an ongoing debate as to what and to what extent needs to be socialized.

Most of what you’re talking about isn’t “socialization”. Socialization, nationalization, etc., as tools of social democracy went out of favour in the 60s and 70s.

What you’re talking about is partly Keynesian macroeconomic “management” of the economy, which is complete shite that messes things up in the long run (recognize the phrase?) more than it does any good. The rest of it is already covered by classical liberalism. Hayek, who’s about plumb centre classical liberal as you can get, agrees with some of what you’re saying, none of it is socialism writ small. Some elements of what’s done in the Scandinavian countries may possibly qualify, but even then, for the majority part the Scandinavian countries are solidly capitalist (in fact Denmark is in some ways more laissez-faire than the US - but I suppose that makes it “Right-wing” ;) )

Beyond that I think everyone should be free to pursue their happiness the way they like assuming they aren’t hurting anyone or breaking any laws (although even then a little law breaking can be a good thing, exposing useless or excessive laws).

Glad we can agree on some things :)

Eh? Wtf are you babbling about? Where have I ever mentioned teenagers protesting in front of their cafeteria because of GMOs?

Political correctness is merely a superficial symptom of the deeper malaise; it’s the Zombie Apocalypse in academia, journalism and the entertainment industry that I’m concerned about.

in the real world real people are currently on the way to elevating Donald Trump to the most powerful position in the world. With Ted Cruz in second place. There is your quasi-religious Idiocracy – it’s right there – not buried in a study about Buffy the Vampire slayer or whatever.

Blue meat.

Also ‘referencing TFA’ … The Force Awakens? Or what is that?

Yeah, one of the most execrable movies of recent years, and a big budget symptom of the glutinous political correctness that’s infected Hollywood over the past couple of decades and turned everything into the same homogenous movie paste.

I’ve already ranted on and on about it in the appropriate thread.

It is. Clearly you are upset about the “right wing” label; but that’s how it has been for well over a hundred years.

You also constantly confuse the economic spectrum with the social spectrum. It is possible to be economically right wing (less regulated free markets) whilst socially left wing (more private freedom), or vice versa… the combination governmental + economic philosophy fits better on a 2-axis graph.

Most of what you’re talking about isn’t “socialization”. Socialization, nationalization, etc., as tools of social democracy went out of favour in the 60s and 70s.

Sorry but you are wrong. It absolutely is socialism. All successful modern economies are democracies with mixed economies. Additionally, Keynes has been proven right in the long run, pretty much beyond a shadow of a doubt now.

Classical liberalism taken at face value inevitably results in a Malthusian, inhumane society (eschewing as it does social safety nets, labour standards, or regulatory oversight), which is why modern (social) liberalism replaced it absolutely everywhere.

The most laissez-faire capitalist economies in the world happen to be Singapore and Hong Kong. It is also a fact that they are among, if not the most, successful economies in the world over the last 50 years. Much as you might wish it were so, it not a coincidence.

Yes, they may one day rival the countries with the highest per cap GDP, which of course are Luxembourg, Monaco, and Liechtenstein.

Now, what do Singapore, Hong Kong, Luxembourg, Monaco, and Liechtenstein have in common apart from enviable economies? Hint: it’s not laissez faire capitalism.

You’re forgetting Brunei, Luxembourg, Macau, San Marino, Kuwait, Quatar, Bermuda, and Monaco!

Pretty much nothing. Both Hong Kong and Singapore have a population 10X any of those others. Luxembourg et al have been relatively wealthy for centuries. Singapore and Hong Kong were at sub-Latin American levels as recently as the 60s.

Take a look at the list of the most capitalistic countries on Earth:

http://www.heritage.org/index/

Malthusian hell holes all. Ha.

That’s an interesting reading, although I’m not sure that the index can really be simplified to “most capitalistic”.

Speaking as a Singaporean, the Heritage.org definition of capiltalistic needs to be defined. The economy here is dominated by GLCs (Government Linked Corporations/Companies). It’s basically through Tamasek Holdings which is our sovereign fund that the government controls most of the economy. Similar economies (in this respect) are the arabian gulf states and Brunei, though unlike Singapore, they built their funds through natural resources, namely oil.

So I think “capitalistic” needs definition. Singapore is definately no “anything goes”. It’s only when Tamasek Holdings does it, not so for anybody else.

Seems to demonstrate that corporatist economies are the way to go! trump 2016!

S

I would disagree classical liberalism leads to an Inhumane. That seems to me to be classifying it in a Randian manner. Classical liberals had huge steps for human progress from an economic and human rights perspective.

I would also argue that every democracy will end up at least some version of socialism because of human nature unless there are strong systemic protections to thwart majoritian rule. Social democracy economies must trade off a smaller pie for a more equal pie. I am skeptical that European social democracies can endure as they currently consist. They are relatively young and are struggling in the current world.

The U.S. needs to hope so. Small biz startups remain weak over last decade compared to previous times. Could because of measuremwmt error. Folks creating an App might not be captures in data. Or could be becuas did policy and Econ changes have hurt small biz.

Do think larger govt always hurt small biz due to power of lobbying and negative entrepreneurs that can be used by large companies.