2715

I don’t know the specifics, only that my son heard him say it was a hoax and that one of his friends he texted confirmed that is what they heard. However, upon reflection I suspect he was referring to the Gulf of Tonkin incident since he was apparently going on about dogma at the time. That is the only thing that makes sense as outright disbelieving in the war is too far out there. Still, a good reason why you might want to leave history to History class where context could be provided and kids wouldn’t just get a crazy message from it.

2716

Now Tonkin is a whole other thing, if that’s what he meant, I think a lot of people would agree.

2717

Yeah; the first Gulf of Tonkin incident occurred (without US casualties), but the second incident never happened despite the report of it being the tipping point for Congress authorizing intervention in SE Asia (The Gulf of Tonkin Resolution). As to why it was reported as factual is up to interpretation, but many people (read: most people I know, anecdotal as that is) believe the US was itching for some casus belli for multiple reasons.

2718

No it’s not.

Policing speech with violence is the definition of totalitarianism. I can’t stand testosterone-fueled posturing about violence. It is bullying and purile intimidation pure and simple. That shit wasn’t even appropriate in high school. It can only be done by people with either the strength or weapons to carry it out (almost always men.) And it never leads to a more just society. What if you’re small, sick, old, female, tired, young, etc? You just don’t get a voice? And have to remain subject to the whims of people stronger than you?

So Aldrin’s punch. Sibrel brought a complaint for assault to the police. Video footage and Aldrin’s testimony suggested that he’d both harassed and physically restrained Adrin and his step-daughter and that Aldrin was acting in self defense. I.e. he wasn’t punching a moon-denier; he was defending himself against an aggressor who had already demonstrated a willingness to engage physically. And even so, Aldrin had to hire a lawyer, make statements, and go through the rigmarole of legally defending himself. By throwing a punch he did indeed open himself to assault charges. When Alec Baldwin punched the paparazzo who was harassing him with his daughter (and again when he punched someone over a parking spot) he was arrested for assault. This idea that you can take a swing at someone with any sort of impunity is pure locker-room dick-swinging nonsense.

2719

No one was talking about the government sending in the troops or the police to punch Nazis. I don’t think a citizen punching a Nazi is the definition of totalitarianism, sorry.

2720

Sure. Mostly. But sometimes…

Not only did he decline to cooperate with police, he removed his Nazi armband and left the area. That’s a plus one for the puncher.

2721

It is if the police decline to prosecute the puncher because they think the Nazi had it coming.

2722

So I had my discussion with the Principal this morning and found him to be a reasonable person. The teacher in question has been instructed to stick to Chemistry going forward.

He shared with me the notes the teacher had for class that day. The intent I think was not horrible - it was to make the point that science should involve skepticism, that you should not reflexively trust experts, that you should look at the data and not just the person making the claim. Where the whole thing went wrong was his choice of topics on which to explore these concepts (vaccines and mass formation psychosis). It is amazingly ironic that a Youtube kookbabbler was trotted out in a serious way to address skepticism of the mainstream approach to the pandemic.

I think I’ll leave this alone for the time being as I don’t really want to add to the outrage cycle by bringing in media, etc. Plus, short of exploding this publicly to the organization that runs the school I don’t know what would be realistically achievable in any case. If the teacher stays in his lane going forward and just teaches Chemistry I think we’ll be ok. I am asking that the school purge the homework grades for those assignments as its not a topic they should have been asked to explore in the first place.

In other local news the huge Independent School District my daughter is in will be shutting down tomorrow through Monday as they no longer have the staff to run the schools and facilities due to so many people being sick. Plus, student positivity is up 500% in the last week. Joy.

2723

@Siphon9r I admire the cool and collected way you dealt with this, and I’m glad it seems to be working out well for you. This story makes me really glad my son is an adult now and I don’t have to worry about this kind of crap.

2724

Seconded, well played!

2725

The police didn’t do that though. The Nazi didn’t want to press charges or talk to the cops.

And cops decline to prosecute/arrest Nazis all the time. Your totalitarian state already exists, but it’s on the other side.

Literally no one said that.

2726

Is it possible that there’s truth in both perspectives in this perennial debate?.. is moral complexity real??

2727

I mean, this is where we started:

Vietnam vets as a rule aren’t big on people shitting on them and what they went through. Nor are their families.

And my sympathy for idiots getting their ass beaten for being idiots is next to nil anymore anyway.
If we all punched Holocaust deniers in the face every time they said that shit no one would be saying it anymore.

Said vets would be happy to go to court over it and odds are the jury would let them off for it most places if we’re honest.

I think that’s close enough to see where one might get the idea that someone said it.

2728

I’m not going to advise anyone to punch a Nazi but if I witness it happen I’m not gonna intervene and I’m gonna tell any cop that asks that I didn’t see a thing.

2729

First they came for the Nazis…

-the end-

2730

What are the two sides here?

  1. It’s ok to punch people who spout nonsense I disagree with like “the Vietnam war is a hoax.”
  2. It’s not ok to punch people for saying nonsense.

I guess I think only the latter is actually a morally, socially, and legally defensible position in a democracy. The former is the position of a thug.

2731

I mean, saying Vietnam is a hoax to a Vietnam vet (the context in which it was brought up) seems to me more like a matter of prudence rather than ethics or law. Like it’s probably not wise to go up to someone and say ‘you’re an ugly motherfucker, you stupid dumb piece of shit’ repeatedly, even if their likely response is not sanctioned by law.

The Nazi thing is a bit more complex insofar as Nazis explicitly advocate violence as a legitimate method of ordering a society, and explicitly want to kill or dominate or enslave certain populations of people. So punching a Nazi is a way of, I dunno, raging against the inherent asymmetry of being a thug in a society that normally values non-thug behavior? Giving them a taste of their own medicine?

I guess I would fall back on the civil disobedience line: break a law if you wish to, but be willing to suffer the consequences of breaking that law. If you think it’s worth risking an assault charge to punch a Nazi, then have at it. But I do agree that Nazi punchers should not be immune to said charges. That just opens the door to epic inconsistency in how the law is applied.

2732

The big one I live in is having a job fair tomorrow. Lack of staff.

My youngest daughter used to come home with weird stories of things she thought her teachers said. I think kids just get confused sometimes. But she never came home with homework that backed it up either. And she did have a teacher in elementary school who was a real ass.

Cops don’t do that, prosecutors do. And hopefully the evidence decides. But even prosecution doesn’t always mean conviction.

Vietnam vets aren’t WW2 vets. Plenty of people think Vietnam vets are wacko so I don’t think that makes for a good get out of jail card.

2733

This is well said.

2734

I liked your way of putting things, as Scott pointed out. Just wanted to come back though and say that, for 90% of people, if you walk up and say “you’re an ugly motherfucker, you stupid dumb piece of shit”, they’ll just try to get away from you. My thought would be “this guy is trying to start something and I really don’t want to be involved in it.” I’d react with fear, not anger, as would most people, particularly people who aren’t jacked up dudes. Regardless, this type of personal insult is very clearly protected speech under Supreme Court precedent, unless it’s accompanied by an immediate and credible threat.