I largely agree with your breakdown on conservatives and liberals generally speaking. I feel like I diverge in that thinking when saying what is the primary objective of a program, if it doesn’t support that primary objective, it needs to be cut. If another program is required to facilitate another need, then create and fund it. periodic reviews of efficiency to goals should occur.
Right now, the goals of a lot of safety net programs are unclear, too broad and flounder and/or get abused (look at addiction services as example).
Yeah, I’ve many times had to explain that the pie is not a fixed size, that the pie can grow. Such as when we spend money on infrastructure or programs for the poor. People always seem to think that economic activity (i.e. money) is a scarce commodity and you are either taking or making it.
But I’ve never really seen it as “which side of the process you are starting from” before now, that I can think of. It’s “backsplaining” a lot of things to me.
Agreed…I’m actually for a one payer system, have a basic health care for all…(reduce the cost of healthcare drastically) maybe no better than the Uk, but basic services, and if your rich you can afford you nose job or any specialized needs you fancy.
I don’t know a single liberal who wants to keep programs around that aren’t doing anything. Also, I’ve never met one who wouldn’t immediately agree that we need our programs to not waste money and actually accomplish something. Maybe this post should be in the thread about what people think liberals do, actually.
Also, the liberals I know would love to do really good jobs at this stuff because this is the bread and butter of what we want to do for the poor. But the other side just constantly attacks them and cuts them so I think the people involved get defensive because they are reacting.
And many people think: well, if money functions like this for every individual, it must function this way for the collection of people that makes up the economy.
But this is the fallacy of composition. It requires a fairly significant shift in thinking when you move to economies - my income is your expenditure, for instance - which is a big leap of reasoning to make. And for many people, thinking about things this way is very alien and counter-intuitive.
Yes, this is because anytime some Republican gets up there to talk about ‘cost control’ in healthcare they really don’t mean cost control in a matter I consider sane or fair. What they mean is that the worthy people get healthcare and the lazy blacks and browns don’t.
Again I’m talking about a specific subset that the average voter is thinking about. The typical illegal immigrant is a legal immigrant with a good paying job that had his visa expire. They typically are not a drain on anyone…and typically take care of themselves and otherwise a good citizen.
Those that flee here illegally are desperate, often exploited, and while typically good people, some get desperate enough to exploit any advantage they can find, even if its not legal. Note: I’m not saying that all, most just it happens and as a society its a shame we allow a condition that allows this abuses of them and forces them to consider exploiting us. We should fix this, for them and us, come up with something fair, compassionate, but stick and enforce whatever we agree to.
Then it seem like that’s a much more fertile ground to spend your effort on than worrying about the impact of illegal immigration on hospital emergency room costs.
I strongly suspect that cracking down on exploitative employers - who undercut other business by violating labour laws, exploiting illegal immigrants who cannot complain - would resolve any illegal immigrant issues far more efficiently than anything else.
BTW this is not a criticism or whatever, I think we have different views on immigrants for two reasons. One, I am one myself so I feel bad when other immigrants are attacked. I’m not one of those who think I am one of the “good immigrants” so they are only attacking “bad immigrants.” (They exist and they are snobs imo). Second, I know a lot of undocumented immigrants. They are family and people we know.
Take my cousin. He’s technically a second cousin but I haven’t seen him in 20+ years. We called him Fatty because he was fat and he ate a lot. He was a good kid, unlike his older asshole brother. He could make origami transformers that could like, transform. I still remember the first time he saw a helium balloon. He kept staring at it while walking in the park. He was 12 years old. Anyway, flash forward. He finally gets to New York. I am told he’s been working in a restaurant kitchen all this time. It’s not easy work, and it is poorly paid work. Anyway, through scrapping he managed to get enough to buy a house along with his brother.
A couple of years ago his brother’s wife got into an argument with him and called the cops on him. He accused him of hitting her. This is highly unlikely, but I was not there. I think that brother is a POS and that wife is shrewish. Anyway. Illegal immigrant, so they were gonna deport him. My grandparents had to spend like, buy a car-money to keep him in the country.
“Illegal” immigrants aren’t out there like eating off welfare and whatever. They work. They’re in home depot trying to get a day job, they clean houses for ~ $100 a day, they paint, clean. It is not easy work. They live packed 9 people in a one family house that’s cut up (violating fire code) into rooms to let. Yeah there’s a bunch of assholes, but that’s everywhere that’s crowded with POS jobs.
I guess I’m just trying to humanize people. I mean… I like know one white person IRL. Everyone else I know because of the internet. Everyone I know is Chinese and Hispanic.
Interesting use of words, though I’m guessing you just slipped into them rather than saying them that way purposefully.
The legal process for fleeing here (i.e. a refugee) isn’t exactly straightforward (Refugee law - Wikipedia) , and is probably at least morally ambiguous. It’s certainly morally wrong when the president decides to make it even harder.
It’s mostly legal (courts will decide things and lawsuits are happening), but definitely it’s morally wrong.
So the only crime these refugees are committing is the crime of crossing the border. Which isn’t a crime if they cross at the correct places.
What Is Illegal Entry?
U.S. immigration law actually uses the term “improper entry,” which has a broad meaning. It’s more than just slipping across the U.S. border at an unguarded point. Improper entry can include:
entering or attempting to enter the United States at any time or place other than one designated by U.S. immigration officers (in other words, away from a border inspection point or other port of entry)
eluding examination or inspection by U.S. immigration officers (people have tried everything from digging tunnels to hiding in the trunk of a friend’s car), or
attempting to enter or obtain entry to the United States by a willfully false or misleading representation or willful concealment of a material fact (which might include, for example, lying on a visa application or buying a false green card or other entry document).
Also I’m having trouble finding references at the moment but I believe refugees can apply for asylum at the border, but under Trump have been turned away or prevented from doing so, and when they cross anyways they get arrested for the minor crime (illegal entry is a civil infraction), their children taken away, and then they get deported without their children. Which is incredibly heinous (I know you agree here as your original point was about this making it hard to talk reasonably about this stuff). But your words matter and “fleeing illegally” hardly makes sense. If they were allowed to “flee legally” then they certainly would. But they are fleeing and it’s probably more in their interests to not get killed rather than figure out the byzantine bureaucratic nightmare that is U.S. refugee law.
Actually I’m really disturbed…is that strong enough how we are handling the refugee crisis. I don’t blame the refugees and pissed when someone calls them a invading army or criminals. They are desperate people fleeing mass murder and deserving of compassion and any assistance we can offer. Taking them ALL in, not sure that’s feasible, but compassion and helping as much as we are able…least we can do.
Well, that bullshit is created by Trump and supported and parroted wholesale by the Republican party.
Meanwhile, the conversation we’ve been having happens inside the Democratic party. It’s a conversation I’ve had with liberal friends too.
I’m telling you, you are a conservative Democrat, my man. Call yourself independent and register that way if that makes you feel better, but the policies you are talking about are policies of the DNC. Fiscal responsibility even is now the domain of the Democrats, which is crazy pants.
It may be that it isn’t feasible, but I certainly wouldn’t grant that without some further argument. As an example, the US has 1/3rd of the population density of e.g. France, and France isn’t crowded or awful. There’s lots of room for refugees.
Thanks for sharing your experience. I am cognizant that there are always real people that could be effected by these thoughts/ideas if they became reality . I base my thoughts based on my known information, but always willing to accept new information and expand my understanding/knowledge…and hopefully do not need too many reminders that people matter more than ideas or ideology.
Turns out helping people and doing the right thing are often economically beneficial as well. I think liberals just lucked into that, but maybe it’s actually by design in some way.
Just to give a reference half-heartedly to support that statement, most European first world countries pay less in health care costs and also provide free health care.
