Immigration in the US

When it comes to changing immigration laws I haven’t seen the Dems be much better. Making employers responsible is fine but you have to give them the tools to make it doable.

Ag (which tends to be republican, at least in California) has pushed for years for a return to a seasonal workers program. I think the dream is for a return to the days when labor crossed the border, did the job ag wanted and then returned back across the border.

Family (?) Values (?)

I think Ag is pretty Republican across the country, or put in this way there is a lot of food grown in the red states. I believe most Republican legislators are highly supportive of a guest worker programs. I’m not so sure about the base.

Ironically, this cyclical migration stopped because of increased border enforcement in the 1980’s - 1990’s. When the trip is uncertain and difficult, people tend to make it only once.

Source: Malcolm Gladwell’s podcast, Revisionist History (which is excellent, btw)

Adam Ruins everything talked about the same issue and reason.

I am not sure why they disappeared but the guest worker program and the bracero program (they could be the same thing) were programs that actually allowed workers into the ag areas and let them work and then when the work was gone they went home. So they were legally here for a limited time frame. But I think those programs disappeared 30+ years ago.

Indeed, they are so supportive of them that they have done nothing at all to expand or improve them, despite effective control of the reins of government for their fair share of the last 40 years.

I’m copying this over from the gay thread since it seemed more appropriate here, we are talking about intolerance of all kinds and should it be a factor in immigration standards.

I think this leads into a subtext of a larger issue which just occurred to me, many people may disagree with me on this.

Culturism- which after a fashion, I have some sympathy on

Not that one culture is superior to another, not at all.

I think that is completely subjective on who you ask. What I do not dispute is that not all cultures can integrate easily, without possible sacrifice from one or other of the cultures.

Culture by Webster’s definition is defined as customary beliefs, social forms, and material traits of a racial, religious, or social group. The characteristic features of everyday existence (such as diversions or a way of life) shared by people in a place or time

Essentially a community that develops it own identity, customs, develop their own values of what is right and wrong…any of which may appear alien or even wrong/evil to members of another culture.

Ideally, I see that when two cultures integrate each continues to respect their culture of origin, while learning to integrate with each other. Ideally. I think the American expectation is that you assimilate into ours, and preserve your origins in your own time. Which makes a kind of sense, since they are migrating in, but the rules and expectations for this are very ad hoc and not all defined.

This gets further complicated by trying to integrate non adjacent cultures, where the ideas of right and wrong are vastly different, or becomes even more challenging with ambiguous things like agreeing on abstract concepts of what is moral or not, or agreeing on social norms. Historically, this generally gets worked on its own after a decade or so as people see each other as individuals and not glossy stereotypes of their culture.

However, I want to emphasize that generally, isn’t always, and not uncommin tensions and resentment build, that sometimes cascade into violence. Shouldn’t we be more thoughtful about how we integrate, and setting clear expectations?

Now in my mind baselines of racism, homophobia, and even treating women as equals, or generally dehumanizing a segment of people for arbitrary definitions is something the majority of the US culture can probably agree on. Though should we be asking that as a condition of immigration? Should we? I mean we are after all asking them to sacrifice a part of their accepted culture. If we should ask, we couldn’t enforce it of course, but maybe as a bar of social expectations? However, do we also owe them similar concessions if they hold a value dear?

What about their traditions? I assume we can say we agree we want to respect them, and encourage them to honor them as they see fit. However, what if those traditions run counter to our standards?

Ok simple example…what if some ritual requires the woman of the household to do a certain function and the man another? Sounds benign enough, why not. What if that tradition is the women does the dishes and laundry and the man earns the money! Even if they are otherwise equals. Is that crossing a acceptable social boundary? I think most might consider that undesired, a unaccepted social behavior. Now, what if the woman also agrees to this? See? where is that line? Who decides what it is? Who are we to take issue with their norms, as long as all involved consent? Do we owe them similar concessions as part of that integration?

I’ll admit I only recently started thinking about this. I have NOT read any papers on it. I reflect back on our leaders and the various public discussions on this subject in the last 20 years and cant recall any concrete expectations and role model to borrow from. Thoughts? Good reading on the subject? :)

It’s the same issue every first generation immigrant group deals with. And it’s pretty much always worked out.

Their traditions are mostly their business as long as it doesn’t run into our laws. If they think a man should work and a woman should tend house… fine. Hell, most of America still feels the same way, they just can’t afford to do it anymore for the most part.

Racism isn’t illegal and it’s not like people who’ve been here since the beginning have figured it out anyway. We’ve got morons marching with Tiki torches chanting shit that their great grandparents would’ve beaten them unconscious for saying in earshot of them.

After just one generation almost all of that disappears anyway. After two, it’s effectively gone.

I mean my grandparents on my mother’s side are homophobic, racists who believe a woman stays at home. Hell, they aren’t even citizens and they’ve lived here for 60 some years. Bloody Quebecois still speak French all the time. Their kids? All fully Americanized. Not sure on the racism for the most part, but I’m sure there is some of it. All their girls had full-time jobs their whole lives. They don’t give a shit about gay people and what they do.

It’s the same story. Like every single time.

I’ve linked it before, but it’s still relevant. Swap out Italians for whatever group it is this decade, it’s the same exact narrative as it’s been since we started this thing.

I was going to post exactly what ShivaX said

Regardless of what your culture any of your cultural values that are the opposite of American culture are openly rebelled against by your kids, and will disappear in your grandkids. Every immigrant group that has come here has a tried and failed to resist the immense power of American culture. American culture is so powerful and so persuasive that parents around the globe struggle to keep their children from adopting American culture, it is a bloody earworm.

Now the parts of your culture that aren’t opposite American values, if they are any good, like say your food, will throw pinapple on it or turned into a salad and by the time were done it won’t resemble what they started out. So you’ll find Korean America running a pizza joint with Kalbi beef as topping, and Italian-American’s running a Suishi place with Pasta. Often will turn your most important holiday into a excuse for a party like Cinco De Mayo, or St. Patrick’s day.

America culture is truly “the borg, you will be assimilated, resistance is futile”

The people who want to immigrate to America want essentially an American lifestyle. They will always integrate, if not super well in the first generation, pretty much flawlessly in the second generation and on.

People who don’t understand this live in an alternate universe.

This is right; indeed, it it’s an understatement. It’s far beyond having ‘worked out’, the immigration has made the country better.

Too right. Or there’s always Cracker Barrel for ‘authentic’ American food uncorrupted by your huddled masses yearning to be free. Meh.

Besides the point, I know, but Cinco de Mayo isn’t actually that important to anybody, except possibly Corona execs.

And Kraft!

How big of a deal is it in Mexico (and it would only be Mexico, since I gather that it commemorates the victory against French interventionist forces at the Battle of Puebla)?

It’s traditionally not a big deal in Mexico at all. It’s mostly a thing in Puebla. That said, the same marketers that pumped it up in the US are trying really hard to make it a thing in Mexico.

The irony is that the current wave of migrants coming from Central and South America are perhaps ideally poised to, not only successfully integrate but, as scottagibson said, to make the county better. At the risk of making generalizations about a broad group of people, from everything I’ve seen they tend to be extremely family oriented, religious and processed of insane work ethics.

I don’t know, this whole conversation has highlighted the many ways that the current political discussions about immigration are not only racially motivated but completely at odds with reality and what’s best for our country. I didn’t think it was possible to be more furious about it all than I was and yet I am.

The country needs a lot more legal immigrants, preferably younger ones. Otherwise we’re demographically boned. We’re just not keeping our birthrate high enough, so immigration is the answer.

There is lots of data support the generalization. Immigrating to the US is a pretty Darwinian process, if the Coyotes don’t kill you, the maddeningly slow immigration process will drive you insane. The lazy, stupid, and unlucky don’t make it here on their own. The low skill ones do the jobs native American won’t and keep the country clean and feed. The middle skill opens shops generally in poor areas and change the neighborhood (e.g. Apu). The super smart ones the Elon Musk, Sergey Brin and Andy Groves, start the SpaceX, Google, and Intel’s of the world and literally change the world.

One of the ironies is that they tend to be religious and culturally conservative, you couple that with an innate distrust of government, highly patriotic and they are sort of tailor made for the old Republican party. There was that report a couple cycles ago about how the Republican both needed and good recruit Hispanics and other immigrants. Of course, when the head of the party calls you rapist, thieves and the proceed to throw you cousins children in cage even when they legally apply for asylum, you deserve to lose a generation of immigration.