In Star Wars movies ... who is most powerful?

The movie’s been out for like a week. I’m not sure how we can already have classic mistakes in the Anakin/Obi Wan fight. Anywho…

I’d say it’s a distant second. He’s pretty well over the edge by the time Obi Wan gets there, when his first reaction upon seeing him is irrational hatred towards Padme and the accusation that she brought him here.

So here’s the crux of your argument, that there’s context weakening Anakin in the fight, and that there’s context for Obi Wan not being at 100% either, but we get to disregard that because Koontz says so. Got it.

I could totally buy that Anakin wasn’t at the top of his game right there in that moment of the fight, but Obi Wan has every reason to be equally distracted and reluctant to fight, if not more so. Anakin has already almost completely turned, and his conflict is lessening with every second. If not at the begining, certainly by the end of the fight he’s at the point of no return. Obi Wan’s reluctance stays with him though, even in the end pleading with Anakin not to try to attack him that last time.

Look, in the end, I’d say the context in debate is about equal for them, and your conjecture that Anakin is the more troubled by this fight is every bit as arbitrary a judgement as assigning them numerical power numbers. In the absence of a clear contextual advantage in the fight, which you’ve failed to show, we’ve no choice but to judge by the absolute result. Obi Won.

He’s not over the edge, he’s flailing. He’s undergoing a lot of pain. He’s not handling it well. He has self-hatred for his recent acts and is pushing away the people he previously loved (his “hatred” toward Padme is actually a noble act… he is saving her from himself). I’m not sure abandoning him after removing his legs from his body is the best treatment for his condition.

After being abandoned by the Jedi, what did you THINK would be his next step? Darth Vader is a very sad and lonely man… abandonment by the order you support will do that to a guy. Obi-Wan coming through in the clutch!

Don’t get me wrong. The BEST case scenario involves a lot of communication between the Jedi and Anakin and perhaps setting a different road for Anakin… whereby he can explore areas normally unexplored by Jedi. Perhaps the Jedi can even establish a seperate branch for pursuit of these activities. My point is that Anakin did not HAVE to become a husk held together by anger and bitterness… he did not have to become Darth Vader. A different path could have been taken if Obi-Wan did not turn his back. Obi-Wan fucked up. Obi-Wan was so upset, so disappointed, so self-pitying that he could not support his “friend” in one of his greatest times of need. He turned away from Anakin so that he did not have to see HIS OWN supposed failure… Obi-Wan blames himself for Anakin’s turning even though the bigger culprits are Anakin himself, Anakin’s mother, and Sidious. Obi-Wan’s egotistical ignorant self-blame was an error that cost the Republic dearly.

That’s wrong. There is no such thing as “completely turning”… after all, Luke was quite a Light Sider but there was (logically) a decent chance of him turning to the Dark Side.

Anakin was highly conflicted during the fight… conflicted over his future… over his destiny. This destiny was clarified greatly after the Jedi abandonment.

The Emperor in the original trilogy was about as difficult to turn to the Light Side as one can get, but even that wasn’t impossible. If his old master returned and said the Light Side was where the coolness is at the Emperor would have become conflicted and might even have turned to the Light. There are always ways. Its a matter of difference in the degree of difficulty of implementing those ways is all.

Obi Wan doesn’t want to kill or harm Anakin. This shows that he doesn’t believe he can’t be turned back to the Light Side… if Anakin was a sure Dark Sider he would have to kill him.

There’s no such thing as the “point of no return”. With Padme’s death and the Jedi order healing Anakin back to health, there is an IDEAL opportunity to infuse Anakin with the Light Side. Without Darth Vader fighting for the Dark Siders the whole shape of Eps 4-6 is different and the Light Siders might be in much better position… at the very least it would cause Sidious to have to be very aggressive in developing a new apprentice… aggression that may lead to a mistake that the Jedi could capitalize on.

What Obi-Wan did there was weak and craven. As it turned out, it comes back to haunt the Light Siders big-time.

Not nearly as arbitrary.

I’m sure you guys have been involved in some kind of sport, right? Ok, forget that… lets just take the NBA. A playoff series. The “more powerful team” might win 4 out of 6 games. So… which game is supposed to be analogous to the Obi-Wan/Anakin fight? Game 2 in which Obi-Wan wins or Game 4 in which Anakin wins? The Geek Code has to say that the win PROVES superiority… so does a Game 5 win by a team that loses the series prove superiority? When the competitors are closely-enough matched (as top Jedi and top Sith naturally are) EITHER side could win a fight, depending on specific, localized, contextual elements. Maybe a slip on a wet rock… maybe a distraction… maybe hunger from a lack of a recent meal, maybe an experimental move that works… to reduce everything to strength in the force is ludicrous. That’s why they have playoff serieses… to try to ENABLE the best team to win.

May the Geek be with you.

What I’d like to know is whether you had to actually see the movie this time to come up with your analysis.

:wink:

Dark Helmet.

I would have done different analyses without having seen the movie. Its more efficient in terms of time spent if I’m going to make many comments on a movie to see it.

I would have done different analyses without having seen the movie. Its more efficient in terms of time spent if I’m going to make many comments on a movie to see it.[/quote]

Note that he doesn’t actually answer the question.

Could you cite a line, gesture, or hell, even a facial tick that backs up your assertion that Anakin was conflicted during the fight?

I would have done different analyses without having seen the movie. Its more efficient in terms of time spent if I’m going to make many comments on a movie to see it.[/quote]

Note that he doesn’t actually answer the question.

Could you cite a line, gesture, or hell, even a facial tick that backs up your assertion that Anakin was conflicted during the fight?[/quote]
Yeah, Koontz has got the bullshit nozzle set wide open on this one. Conflicted? Anakin is a fully-fledged Sith at that point, there’s not even the remotest hint of conflict in him at the end. He’s pure evil.

I don’t think Koontz saw the movie.

I was actually trying to point out “powerful” is meaningless in this sense - is the ability to cheat death more important than bitchin’ saber skills? If there’s anything video games has taught me, there’s rarely a single factor measure of talent.