4501

“…the tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots & tyrants. it is it’s natural manure.” — Karl Marx

That’s…Adam Smith.

4502

I mean, this is precisely the point!

4503

I stand corrected! No ones perfect, including Adam Smith!

4504

And scene!

4505

I’ll say. According to you, Smith lacks economic understanding because of the zero sum world he believes in. My god.

4506

Yeah, my work here is done.

4507

I find it hilarious that you think you make good points. Hey man I’ll cop that I got that wrong, good play! On the other hand I’m not the guy defending Marx, so overall I think I’m doing alright.

Let me know what you think about Marx’s endorsement of terror, violence, and dictatorship! Or is that outside of Marx the man?

4508

I think Marx’s real mistake was killing the Romanovs. You can make a case that he had to overthrow the regime, certainly, but the power he ended up with was too much for him, and he went over to the dark side.

4509

I mean sure it’s sappy, but I’ll at least defend “Right here waiting”. It’s a well produced song that deserved its stint at the top of the charts.

4510

We part ways there, I think his big mistake was advocate for violence and terror on a societal level to enact subjective changes. (To be clear I know it wasn’t Marx, just playing along).

4511

Like Jefferson, you mean?

4512

I tip my hat, sir.

4513

I don’t remember Jefferson advocating for “revolutionary terror” during the American revolution, but could be mistaken!

4514

That’s just hair-splitting. I’m not sure you have a coherent system for judging the case, honestly.

4515

Come on if you had a quote you’d provide it! If you are going to hang your hat on the tree of liberty quote, I think you are being pretty disingenuous to what Jefferson was referring to.

4516

He was talking about using violence to kill people in order to achieve what you call ‘subjective’ changes in his society. He was no fool, he knew what a revolution meant. If Marx is beyond the pale because you say he advocated violence for social and political change, then a lot of other people are, too. If they are not, then he is not, not solely for that reason anyway, and you need to produce a better one.

4517

I am sorry but that analysis is wrong. Jefferson gave that quote in 1787 referring to Shay’s Rebellion under Articles of Confederacy, during this time he was in Paris neck deep it what would become the French revolution. He was defending America from British newspapers who, to quote Jefferson, “repeat and model into every form lies about our being in anarchy”. So Jefferson’s quote is not in some abstract, it’s a direct response to the British using Shays Rebellion to undermine the intellectual underpinnings of the American Revolution. Here is the line right before the tree of liberty quote, “what country can preserve it’s liberties if their rulers are not warned from time to time that their people preserve the spirit of resistance? let them take arms. the remedy is to set them right as to facts, pardon & pacify them. what signify a few lives lost in a century or two?”

Jefferson is talking about brief unrest to show discontent over a long period. Marx is advocate a very acute, very violent, overthrow of democracy/monarchy (the two leading political systems of the time) in favor of a “interim” dictatorship. Notice that Jefferson uses “warned” the rulers “from time to time”, not overthrow them.

4518

We’ve gone from “Jefferson didn’t advocate political violence!” to “Look, he said a few lives lost! A few! Few! Get it!”

4519

Ah come on Thrag who said Jefferson didn’t advocate violence?

4520

Jefferson is a man who carried out a plan to kill people in order to create a regime which would then carry out a genocide and simultaneously perpetuate chattel slavery for generations. But hey, he’s no Marx, who…did not do any of these things.

I’m done. Your argument about Marx is silly, and I’m frankly bemused to have found someone who seems to know even less about Marx than I do.