Iraqis happier, more optimistic than before the war

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/3514504.stm

Cool stuff.

Though oddly enough, Saddam Hussein remains one of the six most popular politicians.

http://www.talkingpointsmemo.com/archives/week_2004_03_14.html#002703

Things aren’t as rosy when you dig into the results:

For instance, 48% of Iraqis say the US was right to invade, versus 39% who say it was wrong. But the breakdown shows that 40% of Arab Iraqis say it was right while 87% of Iraqi Kurds say it was the right thing to do.

There’s a similar disparity on the related question of whether Iraq was ‘liberated rather than humiliated.’ A third of Iraqi Arabs say yes, while 82% of Kurds answered in the affirmative.

Yeah, the Kurds don’t count. They’re not as human.

Seriously, what the fuck? Most people=happy. Why can’t you give credit where it’s due, if not for your own fixed political views.

Uh, I think he’s saying that the overall numbers aren’t an accurate representation of the entire population, because they’re being heavily spiked by the abnormal feelings of a smaller group, which is disinterested in participating in mainstream iraqi life and, in fact, wants to secede from Iraq as a whole and become self governed. It would be apt to say that the Kurdish people are damned happy for our intervention, and with good reason, but generalizing their 80% to the 40% of the non-kurds muddies the picture.

Knowing you, however, Philomath, I’m sure you’ll ignore the entire body of what I said and pick something else to screech about, as you did for Jason. I mean, good god - you actually conflated accurate statistical analysis with racism? Sheesh.

There’s a lot of Kurds in Iraq, as you can see by how they influenced the polls. The poll found that most people favored the war, despite the subsequent terror, humiliation, occupation, ignorant religious leaders having sway, etc.

That’s “rosy” news, and surprising, even: it shows how fucked that country was under Saddam. Even if you hated your leader, how many people here would be in favor of removing him despite those other consequences. You’d have to be desperate. Discounting the views of the Kurds is racism.

Yeah, what quat said. Seriously, do you think I’m out to subjugate Iraqis? WTF?

Kurds are in no way Iraqis, culturally, ethnically, or economically.

As to the practical point “will they ever stop blowing us up” - the answer you get out of that poll is pessimistic. The general pool of people that the attackers have come from is not very happy with us.

And that would be terribly applicable, if anyone was actually calling for discounting the views of the Kurds. I’m seeing a distressing trend, Philomath, in which you steadfastly refuse to read what people actually write, choosing instead to assume they mean something else, usually malign, bigoted, or racist. Is that the way you actually function, or is it just the way you behave, because it’s easier to set up a racist strawman and then knock it down then it is to adress the actual statements made by the other members of this forum?

Don’t be so melodramatic, cowboy.

If you don’t see the results of the poll as positive, when most of the people are happy, then you either don’t think making “most” of the people happy is “rosy”, or you’re ignoring the fact that most people are happy by discounting the opinions of the Kurd minority. I don’t agree, simple as that.

Philo, I honestly don’t get it. Do you actually believe we’re just being racist against Kurds?

No. I think you’re finding what you want to find in those results, even though the only way to rationalize your conclusion was to think that the majority being happy wasn’t rosy, or didn’t matter because it didn’t reflect the majority of the people when you don’t count the Kurds.

To be clear: I certainly don’t think you are rascist. And I love Quatoria’s passion over these issues: his heart is in the right place, even when he doesn’t see the flaws in his reasoning. I don’t think anyone here is a real asshole: I don’t even believe Anaxasaurus actually believes the bigoted things he is saying in another thread, and will someday be embarrassed by them. But I think you guys often have real blinders on, and aren’t as open-minded or very knowledgeable about some of the things you talk at great length about.

So we hash it out when we disagree, and maybe learn something sometimes. No one should take posts personally: I certainly don’t, whether you want me to or not. It really shouldn’t be that important to anyone.

Falsely accuse someone of being a bigot, then try to take the high road and say you don’t think they meant to be the thing that you wrongly accused them of being so that you’d have an easier argument. Classic. This post has the same tone of the one Koontz posted earlier, where bright people have the “potential” to become Koontz-like. Your left-handed compliments make me ashamed to be a southpaw.

Just because you smoked some weed tonight after dinner doesn’t mean you’re a peaceful guy who respects his fellow posters.

I’ve never done any drugs in my life, hippy.

Philo, ok then, explain to me:

  1. The kurds liked us anyway before we invaded and have never attacked us.
  2. The Shai kind of like us, and don’t attack us anyway.
  3. The Sunni really don’t like us, and have attacked us a lot.

According to this poll, the Kurds like us, the Shai are lukewarm, and the Sunnis - the people who’ve been setting off all the bombs - really don’t like us. So not a thing has changed, and there’s no sign in the polling of popular pressure to stop the attacks.

So where’s the good news in this? That we haven’t pissed off the Shai and Kurds?

Well, yeah. They’re being blown up, they’re occupied, they have religious crazies running around, their army was humiliated.

do you think if that happened to Britain, and a majority of people still were happy with the result, that it wouldn’t indicate how terrible life must have really been? That we really did a good thing, if they still think things worked out better, despite the stuff going on that seems nightmarish to us. It’s almost inconceivable to our sensibilities to think that there’s something worse than what’s happening now.

Nobody on the forum wanted to be super smart more than Jobe, but his brain kept getting in the way. The cosmos was cruel that way sometimes. While his former mentor Brian Koontz had a fortunate limbic schism between his ego and his capacity for reason that gave him peace, Jobe was just together enough-- when faced with the cold reality of a dogmatic riposte-- to only halfway give up and post an incongruous picture of a hippo instead of a self-congratulatory but non-sensical rebuttal. It was the failure of the group to acknowledge his specialness as a left-handed practitioner of expatiation that broke his will.

It’s a cute hippo.

Well, yeah. They’re being blown up, they’re occupied, they have religious crazies running around, their army was humiliated.

do you think if that happened to Britain, and a majority of people still were happy with the result, that it wouldn’t indicate how terrible life must have really been? That we really did a good thing, if they still think things worked out better, despite the stuff going on that seems nightmarish to us. It’s almost inconceivable to our sensibilities to think that there’s something worse than what’s happening now.[/quote]

“Britain” isn’t comparable. What would be comparable is if we invaded Britain and the only people happy about it where those that were historically subjugated minorities. A more accurate analogy is “imagine if only the Irish were happy we invaded Britain.” Of course they’re going to be happy, we got rid of their oppressors! The problem is that we royally pissed off their oppressors in the process.

As per the poll, only 40% or so of the historically dominant group - the one that is really making hell for us - is happy us being there. That’s not a pointer to good answers for “are we ever going to leave,” or “will Iraq ever turn into a functioning democracy,” or “will they stop blowing up our troops,” which I think are more important questions than “are the subjugated groups of Iraq happy with us.”

That’s the reason I choose the analogy: it’s the same as if the Welsh (I had in mind) and an overall majority of all of Great Britain thought it was good, despite constant terror attacks in London, and a Druidic cult springing to life at Big Ben – yet they still thought it was a good thing that we overthrew their government. Would that help to make the invasion more justifiable? Hell, yes.