I feel like oh 12 years or so ago everyone was saying the same thing about orcs and elves. Just when I was getting sick of term rogue-like, now I don’t want to hear about battle royale anymore and before that it felt like every game was going to an MMO.
I think order to make sure that doesn’t come over, they should be aware of it in the first place. I’d hope these creators would at least know their source material.
Absolutely. I’m 100% not arguing against awareness here, but a call for the end of all tentacle monsters and foggy towns seems misguided at best.
There are always trends like that, but 12 years ago I was already sick to death of zombies. It really does seem to be completely, amazingly endless, far moreso than most other fads. I mean, Left 4 Dead was 2008 and the trope was already feeling played out then.
Right, but the objectionable bit there is the comment about interbreeding isn’t it? There’s nothing intrinsically problematic about fish people, as far as I know.
The people with Deep One blood are also part and parcel, most of the time. It’s not like fishmen, in and of themselves, are terrifically interesting as monsters.
But certainly I think you can engage with the style of horror Lovecraft originated without specifically going to the well of his creatures and spellbooks and things, many of which are either inherently racist in conception or bring that racism as baggage if one is familiar with the source material. Moreover, I would recommend people do so, cause the existing canon is pretty fuckin’ threadbare at this point.
Fair enough. I don’t recall having ever played a game involving that, but that’s not to suggest it doesn’t come up (or I might well be forgetting something).
Works for me. It’s unfortunate the article is constructed the way it is (as, let’s be honest, clickbait) because there’s a worthwhile underlying point there - you shouldn’t use this stuff without a genuine awareness of, and concern about, the source. I think it can absolutely be handled responsibly, but clearly it’s easy not to do that.
Yeah so if they approach and use material with awareness, they should be fine. The first time someone says something like well we can only have white detectives or characters because that’s the source… we’ll be in trouble. I don’t think anyone mainstream has tried to do anything like that though; it’s mostly a cool visual and other sources have borrowed from it too. Didn’t Hellboy kind of do that (only seen the movies, never read the comics).
I would sooner engage a genre and spin it the way I wanted than concede the ground to odious views. Gay & feminist & white/asian hip hop for example directly subvert the sexism, racism and bigotry present in a lot of early rap. Christian rock is another example of an audience who refused to concede a genre of music just because it was offensive and decided to redefine it on their own terms.
I think Lovecraft should be the same way. Whether he would have been a racist today is impossible to say but I wont deny myself an enjoyable genre just because I dont like the dead artist. Living is a different matter of course and definitely P&R :)
@vinraith @benruppel fyi a lot of the pushback on Lovecraft is not just in the work. Its the fact that in his private correspondence he really was an out and out unapologetic racist., he doesn’t leave any room for misinterpretation.
spoilered mainly because its some nasty stuff and I wont subject friends here to its words accidentally , but anyway fyi a sample.
Of the complete biological inferiority of the negro there can be no question—he has anatomical features consistently varying from those of other stocks, & always in the direction of the lower primates . .
Now the trickiest catch in the negro problem is the fact that it is *really twofold.* The black *is* vastly inferior. There can be no question of this among contemporary and unsentimental biologists—eminent Europeans for whom the prejudice-problem does not exist
etc etc etc.A sample of his letters are here:
but if you buy the books of his letters then this kind of thing is all too common.
No. If you don’t like it, don’t buy it or play it. Why insinuate your own opinions on others. I don’t get it.
Has ANYONE actually read the source material?
Youtube has tons of his work available as audiobooks.
If a horror story involves humans breeding with ancient alien fish people who live in a secluded town and terrify an unwitting outsider, if THAT is racist, then I think it’s a YOU problem, not a LOVECRAFT problem.
Yes, plenty of people have read them. If your choice of defense of Lovecraft is “he wasn’t racist”, well. I see you like a challenge.
I daresay just about all the regular members of this site have read at least one or two of his stories. I’m not sure who you think your audience is here.
Wrong crowd, and I think you completely missed the entire point of the discussion, perhaps not by accident. Lovecraft was a self-admitted racist and his views are in a good portion of his material.
Concur. I won’t deny myself their art, either. Unless that art specifically offends me.
EDIT: Examples, Wagner (Anti-Semite), Hemingway (Spousal Abuse).
I agree and thanks for the specific addition, because I think that is important. As I am not the target in this case its easier for me to skip the authors views read the works. But if you took his letters above and replaced the word “negro” or “jew” with “limey” then I am not sure I would be quite so magnanimous.
edit: we dont do thumbs here but a thumb for your edit :)
Agree. See my edit. If the works themselves express their reprehensible views, then I want nothing to do with the work.
Okay name a story and tell me why it’s racist. Reading into it isn’t allowed.
The point is that I’m yelling at the idea. IDC to read everyone’s pro or con argument, but I win because you read mine anyway :)
“Reading not allowed.”
Ok, name a work or two of his that show his racist views without reading into it.
Jesus, people are allowed to be afraid of the unknown or the other without being racist! If he calls a black person a N-word, then let’s get anyone from that era into the conversation. I bet cavemen were all racists as well!
“Reading into it” Don’t play stupid.
Read (something) into (something)
To find, infer, or attribute an additional meaning or different interpretation to what is presented. It’s easy to read a lot into the secret email exchanges, but we shouldn’t jump to conclusions—there could be a perfectly reasonable explanation. Fans thought the director’s comments indicated that a sequel was on the way, but I think they’re reading too much into it.