Just because Saddam and Arafat say it’s true, doesn’t necessarily make it so. Go pick up a copy of Foreign Affairs quarterly. I would quote directly, but I left mine on an airplane this weekend. There is an article entitled “The Real Roots of Arab Anti-Americanism.” The author gives great evidence that American foreign policy has been historically pro-muslim and pro-arab. The only “anti-Arab” policy Americans have is the support of Israel.
Yes. After he invaded a neighboring country and was threatening to invade Saudi Arabia. The UN intervened, and we kicked him back to his pre-war borders.
Equally guilty. No. One side there is killing women and children on purpose. The other side kills them on accident. And only because their targets are hiding among the women and children.
And our reaction to 9/11 was holy outrage and vengeance w/o a peep in the mirror to think about whether we bore an responsibility.
Yep. It’s our fault for being the most open and free society the world has ever seen. It’s our fault because we refuse to look at the color of a person’s skin and make judgements about their motives. It’s our fault because we don’t confuse someone’s birthplace with their ideas.
This is the problem. We have a chance now to NOT enter the death spiral that has embroiled Israel and Palestine…but that window is closing as we nudge closer and closer to war with Iraq in my opinion.
So what should we do, Paco? We know that:
[ul]Iraq under Saddam Hussein is an aggressor nation.
He holds no regard for human life.
He is in violations of the treaties he signed to end the last war he started. He is determined to produce nuclear weapons.
Despite all efforts, economic sanctions only serve to make us look bad and enrich smugglers.
The people he rules are oppressed, violently so.
He hates the U.S. and would do anything to redeem his reputation.
[/ul]
So what makes your opinion so much better? What would Graller do?
Even if it meant killing yourself and 15 or so innocent women, men, and children who made the fatal error of sitting next to you on the bus that day? That’s looney reasoning. My dad is dead so no one deserves to live. I cannot see the logic in that.
Even if it meant killing yourself and 15 or so innocent women, men, and children who made the fatal error of sitting next to you on the bus that day? That’s looney reasoning. My dad is dead so no one deserves to live. I cannot see the logic in that.[/quote]
It’s even worse. You get the bomb from someone. After you kill these 15 innocents, Israel sends a rocket into an apartment complex to kill the guy who made the bomb…in the process killing 15 Palestinian innocents. Hamas retaliates by strapping a bomb on another guy and walking him into a bus terminal. Israel kills the guy who made that bomb and the group that ordered the attack. Hamas retaliates… This is the song that never ends.
The person who earlier asked about what could be accomplished if the Palestinians took a page out of the book of Ghandi had a great point. All this violence isn’t getting anyone anywhere. And when it DOES result in negotiations, some militant group sabotages the peace talks. Why? Because this isn’t about peace, this is about genocide. Hamas and other extremists don’t want a peaceful resolution, they want the complete extermination of every Jew in the middle east. If they had nukes, I have no doubt they would use them.
Doh, digressed a bit. Back to the point, peaceful protest garners world sympathy. If there were 10,000 muslims on a hunger strike to protest Israel’s occupation of historically muslim homelands, then you might see a lot of support for them. But when you blow up a bus of school children, all you earn yourself is international condemnation (except from countries like Iraq and Syria, who will send you a cookie bouquet and a gift check to Sizzler). Nothing gets done these days without backing from foreign nations, and both Israel and Palestine need to learn that. Israel was on the right track for a while, but then they elected more aggressive leaders who began striking back (again) and derailed their international support (again). Nothing like accidentally killing a few school kids to piss off the world.
Most people are making some interesting points here. The Middle East situation may be unresolvable.
AIM - you’re just an ignorant idiot, quoting mistruths and “facts” with no basis in truth.
Yesterday a Palastinian terrorist snuck into a camp, intentionally killed a mother, then, while the father was watching from a distance, intentionally shot into and killed the two little terrified children hiding under the dead body of their mother. This has not only not been denied, but the Arafat backed Hamas have taken credit for it.
Continue to support and apologize for these folks. It’s one thing to target military and political targets, it’s another to intentionally sneak in and kill a mother, then turn her dead body over and kill her two children hiding under their mother’s body. And this is far from an abberation.
Arafat’s winning the Nobel Prize says a lot about the politics of that committee. Most here may be too young to remember the PLO machine gunning of an airport years ago, where they walked over to writhing women and children and finished them off. Not to mention many other atrocities.
Is Israel an innocent? No, but they absolutely don’t intend to kill innocents. And the certainly don’t engage in the evil behavior that is the norm for the Arafat backed terrorists.
And as someone above pointed out, anti-American fervor in the Arab countries goes a lot deeper than the simple minded comments AIM has made.
Sometimes trolls start some great conversations though. It’s great seeing some folk’s views on the middle east and I’ve honestly learned a few things here.
Yeah, I was just gonna say that myself. I could probably post the sentence “omg my dong feels good when i put butterscotch on it” and within 24 hours there would be a string of posts debating the merits of butterscotch, caramel, and hot fudge as ice cream toppings.
Do you know what the likely reason the Israel/Palestine conflict gets so much attention is? Because in the sixties and seventies PLO started using terror. No one looked that way before then.
Or so I gather. Very sad, anyway.
So I don’t think anyone would care if the Palestinians had used non-violence as a way. If they could do it now… it’s certainly possible, and worth a try. Though Israel isn’t exactly keen on following through on promises like “we’ll talk if it goes two weeks without a bomb”.
From what I know, the Israeli military is systematically harrassing (in the very worst way) the Palestinians and I don’t think they need much in the way of excuses for shooting against them.
That said, can’t say that suicide bombings are really the answer :)
How 'bout those wacky peace-loving Swedish? Good thing you guys have all those attractive blondes, so the rest of the world can treat Sweden as a hot chick sanctuary and leave you out of all of our little wars. :wink:
That’s a good point. I am sure if Americans was in a similar situation they would probably do exactly the same thing. When your back is against the wall and you have nothing to lose you will do anything to strike back.
Regardless of who is right or wrong the fact is Israel has taken over land that does not belong to them. Israel loses any argument by default.
We’ll at least I do have a view point and some knowledge about what is happening over in the middle east, even though if some people might think that I’m being ignorant. Maybe I was misinformed on some of my data, but at least I have an opinion and I’m not afraid to express about how I feel. Or would you rather have me be the typical American drone?
Oh… I guess you would rather have me say nothing right? Just go with the flow? Discussion is good for some people… It let’s them vent a little. Nothing wrong with that and as far as I know I do live in America, so I’m afforded free speech. Eventhough most of the users here might think that I’m being ignorant.
Instead of rehashing articles you read in a quaterly magazine, one that has a definite editorial bias, why don’t you listen to someone who has been in Israel 3 times in the last year, in Pac Rim Muslim areas twice in the past 2 years and I spend my day talking to people from foreign countries. I was in Italy on Sept 11 last year and was stuck over there for 13 days afterward. I was exposed to more even handed reporting then we get here in the States. I love this country, I love living here, I like my job, I like our form of government and the beliefs it is based on. The way the current administration is steering this country frightens me. The nice thing is here, today, I am entitled to that opinion and the right to express it.
You do understand why Israel has that land, right? You have read enough history to know the times they offered it up and it was rejected in favor of trying to wipe Israel off the map a couple of times?
Seriously - a lot of folks regurgitate the shallow media sound bite explanations of the situation. It is a fascinating geo-political history. If anyone is interested enough to post and read this thread, I highly recommend that you spend a week or so finding and reading a variety of histories of the situation (a variety so you can have a shot at finding some that don’t have a political or religious axe to grind.) The history of Israel’s modern establishment and the politics behind it, the sqabbles over land and settlements (e.g, Israel offered the land in question a couple of times for settlers, but it was rejected as unworthy when the Arab nations thought they could eliminate Israel, and tried a couple of times), the political travels of Arafat long before his current role, where the Palastinians came from (not the terrorists) (wonder why there is no “Palastinian” language?), how the PLO has been used over the years, the political struggles within Israel, etc. It really is a sad but fascinating history, and 80% of it is never mentioned and probably not understood by those who report and pontificate on the issue.
Reading and understanding the long history of this struggle won’t eliminate the differences of opinion, but it will make for a more interesting discussion.
Oh, for AIM, to speak in the terms you use: this struggle has been going of for about 30 million years. A billion people were killed in the two Arab/Israeli wars, including millions of Japanese who were also interred by the Israelis at the bequest of the evil USA. Exxon actually established the nation of Israel in order to destablize the region and allow them to keep oil prices high, while disguising their plans to nuke the whales.
Good post Jeff - the Middle East is the most volatile region on the globe no question. Religion, Oil, Politics are a nasty combination. A people who have felt persecution from both Christians and Muslims for 2000+ years. A region that has been fought over between Christians and Muslims since 700 AD. The pograms, the fact it is the most important site of the Christian church and in the top 3 for Islam. The fact that the modern Western European nations “walked away” from the issues after WW2.
Its a kettle that has been boiling for a long time. Thats why I get nervous that we are about to go stick our feet in and see what the water temperature is like.
Oh, no, there are other options. Try
c) He is a terrorist who would like to build a state, and is willing to make peace for it, but
he must come up with a deal others will accept (he is not all powerful), and
Israel has pretty well destroyed whatever influence he did have, so
His only chance to gain influence back is to unlease Fatah “martyrs” himself.
I’m not saying that is the truth (hard to tell from Austin, TX), but it’s at least another possibility. And there are many, many more possibilities.
I have no quarrel with Israel not dealing with Arafat, but whom do you think they will get in his place? Hamas? There are no younger, “innocent” Palestinians both willing and able to step forward and negotiate a deal. Truth told, if they did their lives wouldn’t last a week without round-the-clock Israeli protection. Arafat has enough stature that he can do some unpopular things – not everything Israel wants, by a long shot, but who can do more?
And as for Sharon, he’s just another murderer. Firing missiles at cars in the middle of the street and then claiming that children maimed were an “accident” is just a bald-faced lie. Maybe it’s better than aiming at the kids, but not by much. (Yes, Arafat is also a murderer. They are two of a kind.)
Just my opinion, but the whole Israeli-Palestinian thing looks to me like a race to the bottom between organized criminals. I cannot for the life of me see why we want to be involved with either side.
