1901

I don’t feel CCP ever said players were “making stuff up”, they pointed out improvements being made to the server architecture that are “behind the scenes” to show that progress is being made in some areas. Didn’t he also mention in the Devblog that automation methods were being developed to test large fleet ops?

And this to me is far from calling the CSM minutes lies:

To be completely up-front about it, I have to say I‘m quite taken aback by the difference in the meeting minutes compared to my firsthand experience from attending the meetings.

For my part, I felt the discussions were very constructive and I had great dialogue with the council members.

Maybe I‘m completely delusional and it didn‘t go that way at all, but there‘s definitely something broken in the feedback loop we have with the CSM and I will be working closely with them to enhance our collaboration. When two parties have such vastly different perceptions of the same event, something is wrong and needs to be fixed. We have some suggestions in mind and we will be exploring them in the fall. I‘m confident that with the CSM‘s help we can take this to the next level.

Emphasis mine. He never said they were lying, he said he had such a very different perspective on the meeting that the CSMs did that he needs to figure out where the communication breakdown is, and that they’ll work with the CSMs to improve it.

Don’t get me wrong, I get the frustration about stuff not being fixed, but I thought the minutes acknowledged the request and then listed the timeframe of allocated resources.
That sounds very familiar with how my software development house works. Myself as a development resource, I’m booked solid for… probably at least 9 months. That’s what it is on paper but I know the current projects will run longer than that. If we were to request feedback from a bunch of customers and catalog their requests, it would take a minimum of a year or so before I could wrap up what I’m currently working on and start working on what they requested.

Plus there’s project planning that has to go on. It’s not just a matter of saying “Okay goodgimp, fix bugs. Go!”. You have to prioritize everything on what takes how long, how feasible it is, you have to get the resources, you need to design the new systems that will replace or fix broken ones, etc. Plus, as a business, there’s always the unfortunate discussion of cost vs. benefit in overhauling a feature.

Now, I will admit that maybe I’m empathizing way too much with them and they really are just giving the customers the blow off. In that case you have every right to be frustrated (well I think you have a right to be frustrated regardless - games should work as advertised, especially when you have a monthly fee). Either way, I still didn’t read arrogance or disdainfulness in the devblog. I seem to recall the CSM minutes requesting they provide more info on what is going on in the background and this seemed to be the fulfillment of that request.

Anyway, it’s been interesting reading your take on the devblog, so thanks for elaborating. I think it’s very interesting when how I read something is very different than how other people do. I think if it convinces me of one thing it’s that I could never, ever, hack it as a public communications figure :)

1902

I always wonder how much time would they need to fix simple stuff, like Rockets.

1903

Hey, a career in PR is clearly not for me either :)
Not sure if you play eve, if you do not then I understand how difficult it can be to relate to the information I am trying to convey. If you do, then surprised and interested to see why/how you are not as affected.

Also, I have been playing this game since 2004 now, so clearly suffering from a lot of “deja-vu” moments.

From the CSM minutes:
> Lag will always be an issue however EVE, but EVE is now, from a technical standpoint, in a better state than it has ever been. + lots of meaningless numbers

There is clearly a massive disconnect between CCP’s perception/discourse and the reality of what is happening ingame, on a daily basis, for most people involved in 0.0 (at least) for whom the game is broken in fairly fundamental ways.

In addition to that, over the last 3 expansions, CCP released features which were incomplete/poorly thought out/poorly implemented and still need work. Add to this a huge backlog of existing problems with several aspects of the core gameplay.

The problem is that, for a long time now, players have tried to tell CCP that they need to stop, reflect on the state of the game and take the appropriate actions and all we get back from CCP is “we hear you but instead we are going to commit most of our resources to something else”.

given past communication patterns, the fact the minutes were approved by CCP before being released, heavy censorship of information, recent transparent attempts to deflect players attention there is a lot of cynicism involved in his message.

Whilst technically not calling the minutes lies, he does say that they do not reflect his “first hand experience from attending the meeting” … and then tries to put some spin on “constructive discussions” etc. Now, I did not attend any of the meetings and all I have to base my analysis on are the minutes but some of the meetings certainly do not seem constructive.

yes, 12-18 months (WTF?) and most of the resources being allocated to something else (incarna, dust)

The point is that some of the core game elements (which do have a significant impact on the quality of the game) have already been broken for 12-18 months now (even longer for some). Telling the players no serious effort (and resources) will be dedicated to fixing the core gameplay for the next 12-18 months in that context is a massive slap in the face.

There is no clear acknowledgement by CCP of the players point of view and perceived size of the issue.
I understand about resources allocation and priorities but does CCP really expect players to play a broken game for over 2-3 years because they would rather chase after new customers? It is their choice but you can hardly blame existing customers being angry at being told so.

Probably another too long post from me but I feel it is important to provide a different point of view on what is seen by a large number of old players as an incredible attempt by CCP to milk us whilst refusing to fix their game (or even acknowledge it needs fixing).

1904

Thanks again for the additional elaboration. I do play EVE, but have only been around since Sep 2009 (Apocrypha). I haven’t been involved in lag monster inducing fleet battles, either. I took part in the SYS-K / Coven war a few months ago and had maybe 300 ships in the fight, but that’s as big as it’s gotten for me.

I think perhaps I’m still relatively too young a player to either A) See the larger pattern of CCP’s response to feedback and B) Exposed to more of the “broken” aspects of the game. From what I’ve been exposed to (Minor 0.0 sov war, currently sulking up in Empire running missions, crap like that) things seem to work but I haven’t touched Faction Warfare or anything and I hear that’s got some problems.

Of course, the other option is C) and that I haven’t been around long enough to be jaded about the whole thing. Probably a mix of all three :)

1905

Almost certainly, I do admit to being somewhat jaded :)

On the other hand, some of the issues include corp interface/roles, standings, industry interface, POs management, specific ships and ammo (AFs, rockets, T2 ammo), FW (utterly broken), which you will also encounter in empire and have been around for ages

Anyway, enough from me on the matter for now, thanks for the interesting discussion !

1906

Bittervets unite!

1907

Your bookmarks are server side however if you have them organised into folders then those folders are client side. This becomes important when you have tens of thousands of bookmarks as I do.

Evemon, EFT and most other apps can all be copied across entire into a new install. All of your old preference files etc can be found in C:\Documents and Settings\user_profile\Local Settings\Application Data\CCP\EVE

1908

I just wanna chime in that farfrael is defintely right with his point of view reading the new devblog but just as goodgimp being a “developing resource” the timeframe/manpower and stuff he mentioned regarding getting input from a “customer” is true.

You also dont “keep” resources spare, because that would be stupid, you always book out your full crew to have maximum productivity and with that and what goodgimp in mind I wasnt very surpised by the CSM minutes. the only thing that suprised me is that they really had their next 18months planned out already.

I would have expected 12months but as it looks they really need to get incarna off the ground to satisfy the investors and at the same time DUST514 is dated very early IMHO too. I would have expected some room for CSM related issues inbetween the two.

Anyway, I still like the game but I m not good to measure the quality as I played Master Squad leader, Master Carabineer in Star Wars Galaxy and that was one of the most broken combinatinos in that game (together with smugglers).

Im not recommending the game to any of my friends, as its in a desolate state and its a very different way of gaming vs WoW (where most have their background). ALthough the new profession agents really helped getting people getting along way easier into the game, most of them need that avatar, so I might also be one of the few players that is really looking forward to Incarna. But thats been announced already at least two years ago.

I also dont really care about DUST514 (only got a Wii) but really having a development slot for FW or UI inbetween the two expansions not related to the core Eve game would have been at least “polite”. This way as farfael said, they have about 2/3 of their dev resourced tied into something that is not the “core” game.

1909

:thumbs up:

Cheers Iain.

1910

I’ve never actually used rockets. Why are they broken? I’ll chime in with, “how many times do they have to fix the Catalyst model before it’s finally fixed?”

1911

They have a explosion velocity equivalent to a torpedo in a frigate weapon, meaning you wont hit anything (frigate sized).

1912

also: any use for defender missiles yet? patch them out of the game or something if not.

1913

I’ve seen rats drop defender missiles. You can refine them into minerals and make something useful from it.

1914

Just finished L4 World’s Collide. I love that mission. 24 Mil bounty, 1.5 Mil reward, and about 2500 m3 of loot and salvage of unknown total.

I didn’t know that about the rockets though. That’s just …sad.

1915

I have finished doing all of the level 1/2 gallente cosmos missions and picked up enough blueprints to warrant me training the skills to manufacture them (only 4 days to get up to Yan Lung 3 quality).

I cant really run missions fast- but with the money from COSMOS I will probably grab another battleship, an upgrade from my dominix.

1916

Did you get any cool blueprints?
I’m thinking of doing the pirate epic arc in a ceptor once i get to fly them, but its zero zero.

1917

That sounds cool, Thorn. I’ve not done any COSMOS stuff at all. Any problem getting the skillbooks needed for the BPC’s?

1918

well you can buy it for 40 million(Yan Jung- each race has a racial one) but nah, its not bad. You do need industry 5 to make them, which is a 1x skill but still I dont have it (yet I have PE 4 for some reason).

just make sure you use this site: http://www.hb3.info/cosmos/
I know it is in german, but it is the best site I have found by far for information on cosmos, as 90% of the sites just handle caldari sites.

I have done only the level 2 and level 0 agents for gallente(need like .03 more standing :( ) had to pull out an assault frigate for one set of missions, but I bet you can do it in a well fitted cruiser/ easy in a BC. By the way, they are all in high sec- no reason not to do em.

also coffeez: i would totally be in for that with you- my only problem is bubble warfare!

as for blueprints ive gotten:

‘boss’ remote sensor booster
‘marketeer’ tracking computer
‘Aura’ warp core stabilizer
‘Investor’ tracking disruptor
‘Pacifier’ large remote armor repair
‘Forger’ ECCM’
‘Entreprenueur’ Remote sensor booster
‘Tycoon’ Tracking link
‘Beatnik’ Small Remote Armor Repair
‘Love’ Medium remote armor repair

In around 2 or 3 hours of just running courier missions. and 2 combat missions. I put them back in my HQ, but I beleive they are all 3 run BPC’s. oh and the best one, the ‘Pacifier’ is worth around 200 mil each.

So if anyone wants me to make some if you do gallente missions, Ill be happy to manufacture em for a small fee (I am currently just going to get all of the mats right now, archaeological based).

I am also going to run the minmatar COSMOS for paired standing.

EDIT: man the site to get materials is too tough for my domi to tank(and fit analyzer modules) if anyone has the ’ passkey to Yan Jung’ item and wants to help: I could use someone to grab the archy sites in a quick AF or something while I speed tank in a AF or HAC.

1919

This is the language and mentality of the P&R forum (or its many clones all over the internet). It’s like you’re a democrat and he’s a republican (replace with any two opposing political parties of your choice) and therefore you always choose to assume the worst possible motive when reading anything he says. I see no plain English reading of the text that possibly supports the “arrogance and disdain”, it’s just prejudice speaking. And of course it’s a self-reinforcing prejudice, as the “arrogance and disdain” you read into that devblog just makes you more angry and even more inclined to misinterpret or over-interpret the next statement from CCP.

Most of it is purely factual (with a couple of slightly spiky in-jokes thrown in for those who’ve been spending too much time reading forums), a breakdown of how CCP has allocated it’s development resources. And then we have the final section where we find out that two groups of people focused on very different agendas went into a meeting and came out with different impressions of the outcome (something I’ve personally experienced a number of times so I don’t see it as remarkable). And Zulu’s reaction to that seems to have been purely positive, a realisation that there’s a communications problem between CCP and the CSM and that they need to fix it.

1920

No it is not, you clearly have no idea what the background is and/or not read any of the follow-up posts in this thread or on the eve forums.