Is western education falling behind?

Yes, western education is falling so far behind that the pathetic US/Canada/English education system has doomed those three countries to the economic dustbin.

Hopelessly specialized Western scientists, apparently too stupid to learn, content themselves with research and innovation.

shift- You’re joking, right? Russian high school juniors are on the Ph.D candidate level in the US, and will remain so for the next 10 years? For 50 years the Iron Curtain got it’s ass kicked in nearly every field of science by the borderline-retarded West. What advancements the Russians made were by brute force and energizing the entire national industry towards, while we managed to produce actual solutions to actual problems.

Xpav is exactly right. We hear about how far the US is falling behind constantly because we teach in a different way. A way that doesn’t produce great average test scores, but produces great many more scientists, lawyers, businessmen, etc. We don’t teach by rote memorization.

Depends. Are you comparing the career track-from-grade-1 system of other countries to the US career-track-by-place-of-birth system?

No, I wasn’t joking. However, I mentioned literacy rate (a good baseline for general education), which you kind of ran with all the way to PhD candidates; I said that they will be ahead for 10-20 years, not that they are 10-20 years ahead, so no their juniors are not PhDs. Jesus.

By the way, I consider something like “literacy”, which is simply the ability to read and write, or “trigonometry”, the ability to use sin/cos/tan in mathematics, as being good for comparing across systems. Skill based comparisons like this are about as good as one can get. I definitely agree with you that test scores would not work.

Anyways, the Iron Curtain didn’t get its ass kicked nearly as handily as you seem to think, and I invite you to read any of the dozens of books on Soviet technology. For instance, Russia beat us into every facet of space (first satellite, first safe return of a living creature, first orbit, first space walk, etc) except moon landing. They also had superior jet technology until the late 70s when a few key defections tilted that in our favor (read: we began to beat them because we were handed their work). Their trains were far superior to ours (although their tracks were awful due to centralized planning). Their subs were better than ours in many areas (they achieved many naval “firsts” with them, especially in the Arctic). There are some who believe their cutting edge work in electronics is still superior, although so much of it is still classified there is no way to know.

Don’t get me started on how bad ass the East Germans were (from a technology development point of view) until the mid-80s. By the way, that was while we Americans were in the middle of having our asses handed to us by Japan as well.

Now clearly it would be idiotic to say they were ahead of the West in every area. For instance, America first harnessed the atom for both peacetime and war use. So no, I’m not saying that the West was tragically defeated in every field of endeavor. But I believe that their literacy rate is excellent evidence to support the notion that, ounce for ounce, their public educational system was (not “still is”) superior to ours.

Yuri Gagarin actually ejected from his capsule before it hit the ground. Technically, that was against the rules and shouldn’t have counted as the first man in orbit. Of course, the Soviets didn’t mention that.

Another one: Remember the shootdown of the U-2 by the SAM? Actually, they put a guy in a stripped down MiG-19 and told him to ram Gary Power’s U-2. He did. Then they claimed it was a SAM.

The problem with the Soviet is that they just lied their asses off.

Subs superior to ours? Sure, they had lots, but superior how? Deeper diving and faster, maybe, but that doesn’t get you much.

They were better in jet technology? Huh?

When you quote a 96% literacy rate in Soviet Russia, you don’t think they actually lied? I mean, how much credibilty do you give any reports from that regime?

There were rules?

Is there serious disagreement about the quality of the Soviet educational system? I mean, they couldn’t build a mass-production car to save their lives, but their researchers were pretty good until the early 1980s or so. Ignoring that unfortunate Lyskenkoism thing…

I just find a claim of 96% literacy to be pretty outrageous. This is the USSR here, with its endemic economic problems, huge criminal caste, peasant heritage and a centralized bureaucracy which would never reveal the truth as a matter of policy.
I’m sure that they had some great researchers but with that sort of population, there’s bound to be quite a few people at the brilliant end of the bell-curve.

They had voice control! It could even understand American accents.

I was under the impression that US/American public education was not up to the same standards as European & Asian schools, but the University-level education was much better.

From my own experience, having gone through higher education and university in the UK in the 1980s, in the first year at university, students from the US and Canada were so far behind in mathematics and the physical sciences that they had to spend the first two terms in separate catch-up classes to bring them up to the level of the students from the UK. I believe this was due in large part to students in the UK specializing much earlier than students in North America. In the UK, students start to specialize as early as the equivalent of grade 10 in North America.

Hahaha! OK man. 8)

Yeah the MiG series pretty much blew away anything NATO had to offer on a one-to-one basis, until a few defectors brought us a few choice MiGs (sometime in the mid 60s, if I recall correctly) and we drastically improved ours. Yeah we could afford to build more, but they were faster and more manueverable. Maybe that doesn’t get me much? 8)

I didn’t think there would be, but apparently there is.

I’m only regurgitating what I’ve read in a dozen books on Soviet Russia. Believe it or don’t, it makes no difference to me. Russia had one of the highest literacy rates in recent history according to all accounts (including current anti-Communism non propoganda versions). If something like Yuri Gregarin not landing on earth according to “the rules” somehow equates to “therefore our educational system far exceeded theirs”, well I certainly can’t argue with that logic.

Soviet Russia engaged in the most breakneck crazy industrialization in history, exceeding even the bat-shit insane programs instituted by Peter the Great (also in Russia BTW), going from horses and buggies on dirt roads to nuclear space superpower in about 30 years. I don’t think such a quick and successful change could have been made without a damn fine educational system. You may do with that information (and my opinion of it) what you will.

Also, Peter for what it’s worth, the Supreme Soviet revealed the truth every time it made Soviet Communism look like a success. This claim is one of the few which has stood up to post-Soviet scrutiny by historians.

Yeah the MiG series pretty much blew away anything NATO had to offer on a one-to-one basis, until a few defectors brought us a few choice MiGs (sometime in the mid 60s, if I recall correctly) and we drastically improved ours. Yeah we could afford to build more, but they were faster and more manueverable. Maybe that doesn’t get me much? 8)
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Dude, WTF are you talking about? Seriously, what are your sources here? Hell, give me some aircraft models here. Because if you’re going off half-remembered stuff from the Discovery Channel, I’m going to be very disappointed.

http://korea50.army.mil/history/factsheets/air_f_fs.shtml

On November 8, 1950, 1st Lt. Russell Brown, flying an F-80, shot down a MiG-15 in the first all-jet dogfight in history. It was apparent, however, that the MiG-15 was superior to any aircraft then in FEAF’s inventory. The MiG’s pilots were also very good, being (for the most part) veteran Russian fliers. But FEAF soon had a counter to the MiG-15—the superb F-86A (and later, F-86E/F) Sabre. Many of the Sabre pilots were veterans of World War II and their expertise showed. Soon the Sabres and MiGs were mixing it up over northwest Korea, an area that became known as “MiG Alley.” On December 17, 1950, Lt. Col. Bruce Hinton WAS THE FIRST Sabre pilot to score the first of an estimated 818 MiG-15 kills.

On November 8, 1950, 1st Lt. Russell Brown, flying an F-80, shot down a MiG-15 in the first all-jet dogfight in history. It was apparent, however, that the MiG-15 was superior to any aircraft then in FEAF’s inventory.
(FEAF: Far Eastern Air Force)

The brand new MiG-15 was better than the F-80. a 4 year old aircraft?

NO FUCKING SHIT.

Good thing we had already developed the F-86, and a month later, it went into combat.

http://www.acepilots.com/korea_aces.html

On December 17, F-86s of the 336th FIS (Fighter Interceptor Squadron), 4th FIW ran their first fighter sweep along the Yalu, the area known as “MiG Alley.” The Sabres engaged the MiG-15s on roughly equal terms, and soon scored aerial victories against the Russian jets.

Actual Russian losses? 345 that the Russians admit. Actual F-86 losses? 78 in air combat. Tack another 20 on if you’re being generous to the Soviets.

It racked up huge kill ratios against the MiG-15s. Overwhelming superiority? No. US aircraft weren’t best in everything. However, the argument that “Russian aircraft were better than US aicraft” is supported by absolutely no evidence at all. If shift6 is going to talk about the MiG-25, then he’s watched far too much Firefox.

Jason, I’m sorry, Googling with no prior knowledge of the subject isn’t going to help you win this argument.

And the sub thing… I think shift6 is also confused on that. US subs have always had the quietness edge. In the sub game since the 50s, that means you win most of the time.

edit: to clarify what FEAF meant, and to say that you could add some F-86 losses if you want to be generous.

Touchy, geez.

For what it’s worth, I remember reading a while back that the Soviets outclassed us in jets for a while, that was just the first result to come up.

Everyone always thinks that the bad guys outclass you in everything. Missile gap, cruiser gap, aircraft gap, yadda yadda.

Here’s what the Soviets were good at: Making a hell of a lot of rugged, reliable, easy to maintain aircraft that weren’t completely outclassed by the West.

Let’s look at the #1 example: The MiG-21. Counting its derivatives, probably the most produced post-WW2 fighter aircraft. Heck, the Chinese are still making them, and there are Israeli firms that will happily stuff your 60s era Fishbed with electronics worthy of an F-16.

In a given generation, there will be no aircraft that will rule over all others (ok, if there is, it’s so expensive that they will build like 3 of them err… F-22). The thing that matters is the pilot quality, which is probably why the Israelis, with western equipment, took the Arabs, with the Soviet aircraft, back behind the woodshed and worked them over with a 2x4 every single time they got into a fight.

Actually, the Supreme Soviet claimed success in everything rather than just reveal a true achievement every now and then.
I’ll be honest and admit I have no facts of my own to deny the claim but I’ll just point to the basic facts of the Communist system and Soviet society. Most data was not accurately and truthfully reported because of the batshit insane culture of norm-setting that developed. It would be interesting to know what standards they used to judge the norms for literacy.
As for a quick industrial change relying on superior education- I don’t think so. Japan managed a similar feat late 19th Century without one.
You just need the bloody-minded will to do so. If that means that unprotected political prisoners mine and process your uranium in primitive conditions, whilst your spies get most of the information for how to make them, go for it, you’ll get your nukes.

Personal opinion. Yes the education system in the US is well behind that of other countries. The reason we enjoy a technogical advantage and have for the last 50 years? Because we have had a lot more resources <read money> to throw at problems and R&D then the others. This equation has remained true for the last 80 years. But watch what happens as the dollar slides and interest rates change and the Euro becomes the investment vehicle of choice. Our ability to continue to buy scientists from other countries with our “way of life” and fund their developments with money will evaporate.

shift6: " I expect that kids from Poland to Romania will be between five and ten years ahead of their American counterparts for at least a generation to come, while Russians will remain ahead, ounce for ounce, for perhaps twice as long. "

Jesus indeed. Was this some sort of meta-argument? “If I had gone to a school in Soviet Russia, I’d remember what I said 10 posts ago!” If so, touche.

They “beat” us in the space race because they had better Germans at the start and we didn’t throw our entire national industry behind the process. Also, we were a lot less experimental in terms of willing to have 18 rockets explode before one got to space.

You seem to be getting your information from Pravda.

With a better educated populace and superior military technology, it seems a little improbable that the USSR would lose the Cold War. But, uh, they did. By a lot. Or is that also something you’d like to dispute, Mr. Chekov?