As a contrast to the opening post in this thread, I’d like to point out that students in Alberta tied with Finnish students for the highest score on standardized tests in math, reading, and science. Western education can’t be all bad. :)
A comprehensive survey conducted last year in 41 countries and released on Monday by the Paris-based Organization for Economic Co-operation and Development ranked Canadian 15-year-olds third in reading, seventh in math and 11th in science.
But a breakdown by province shows Alberta is the leader in Canada, neck and neck in the rankings with top-performing Finland.
Among the 41 countries, Finland finished first in reading and science and second to Hong Kong in math. Alberta tied with Finland for top spot in reading, beat the European country by five points in math and closely trailed it in science.
They’re not RUSSIAN losses, they’re Korean and Chinese losses.
The Korean War pitted experienced World War II vets from America against poorly trained North Koreans and Chinese. What did you expect was going to happen?
Except for when the Soviet pilots that were “training” the Korean and Chinese got up there and started mixing it up. Several front line Soviet squadrons did do this.
Well seeing as how we almost never engaged actual Soviet pilots flying actual Soviet jets (as someone else pointed out already), I don’t really have much explaining to do. I could say something like the Soviets gave excellent, and in ways superior, technology to inferior people who hadn’t a clue in hell how to use it. There is little evidence (to my knowledge) that we ever engaged Soviet pilots to any large degree, i.e. more than the token pilot during a real conflict, a spy mission here and there, etc.
I also said “if you forced me to pick a MiG fighter”. That example is hardly the lynchpin of my assertion that the USSR had better jet technology than the West for most years of the Cold War.
Well dude, I am talking about jet technology not the lightness of space gear or the quality of Soviet electronics (which, by the way, was way behind us… in this you are correct, sir).
I had the defection of Lt. Ro Kun Suk right after the Korean War (Operation Moolah) in mind, but I’m sure there were others.
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OK so I wasn’t originally wrong about defections later on. Actually I found a really good spreadsheet style reference table that I think both you and I will like: here. It includes the date, person’s name, and model jet! True most of them were not Russian pilots, but the tech is more the point of what we are discussing here, I think.
I don’t understand what you mean by this, nor what it has to do with the thread. With reference to spending, I simply opined that one reason we gained superior technology over the Soviets was our ability to outspend them. I don’t know if I’ve heard any credible historian attribute the West’s victory of the Cold War to anything but this very thing, and it started in 1945 (perhaps earlier).
Superior intelligence doesn’t mean all the information gained was useful and perfect and timely, nor does it mean that policy makers blindly followed every bit of intel that came in without due diligence, cross-referencing, and analysis. It means only that our intelligence systems (by which I include counter-intel as well, incidently) were superior to the Soviets. That’s all.
The Brits achieved a superior intelligence system over the Germans during the latter part of World War 2 when Enigma was broken. Did they rush out and try to win the war in a month? No, they slowly and carefully used it to make and support policy and tactical decisions, every one of which was designed to not give away the system of intel used (the broken Enigma code). No one in the public knew until years and years later that they had superior intelligence to the Germans due to this event.
Soviet intel was far stronger and more determined against its own people than against other nations; after all you gotta keep them dissidants down. The only things the Soviets really had going for them in foreign intelligence were 1) foreigners who were ideologically aligned with Marxism and 2) widespread influence of foreign Communist parties, both groups of which continually volunteered info and energy to support the USSR’s intel. Hell, half the time the USSR didn’t believe even the good intel it got from these people, while the other half the time the KGB was funding “spies” who were leading them on for financial reasons and producing shoddy or worthless intel.
Except for when the Soviet pilots that were “training” the Korean and Chinese got up there and started mixing it up. Several front line Soviet squadrons did do this.[/quote]
So? Do you have combat statistics on how well or poorly they did?
Are these combat veterans, or simply Russians who were trained to fly the MiG 15?
What effect did air combat doctrines have on kill ratios?
EVERYBODY agrees that the MiG-15/F-86 had remarkably similar performance. The differences were so slight that people noted the F-86’s superior climate control because it fogged up less at high altitudes. Do you think if serious performance differences were in evidence, people would notice this?
Except for when the Soviet pilots that were “training” the Korean and Chinese got up there and started mixing it up. Several front line Soviet squadrons did do this.[/quote]
So? Do you have combat statistics on how well or poorly they did?[/quote]
Sure. 303rd and 324th IAD. Elite Soviet squadrons from Moscow. Later, less trained Soviets squadrons did much worse.
Google for “soviet mig-15 korean war F-86”.
The numbers are exagerated (like they always are), F-86 and MiG-15 are… you’re right, about the same.
Which is what I’ve been saying the whole time. In no way was Soviet aircraft technology definitively better than US technology.
I understand that right now, if it’s got an American, British or Israeli flag on it, it’s simply better than what anyone else can throw upstairs. The Russians lost the cold war.
Let’s fantasize about the aerial death machines of the future, not museum pieces that haven’t inadvertantly killed any Tadjikistani peasants since 1964.
Jakub- So it’s one unsourced quote? That’s not really a proper cite.
shift6- But ability to spend isn’t a variable. With superior education and superior technology, why couldn’t Soviet Russia outspend us?
Also, please. “Inferior people”? It couldn’t possibly be that the technology wasn’t as great as you think, it was those damn little yellow guys not using it right.
Seems to me that the Israeli’s American tech beat Arab Soviet tech as well. Those are combat veterans.
Fair enough. I’m definitely not a military history buff. I (like Jason also in this thread) seem to recall that there were certain key defections that brought us our first look at new jets, many of which contained “holy shit, why didn’t we think of that?” stuff. :)
Because of an inferior economic and governmental system. New scientific technology was OK, new thought in any other area (even non-tech sciences such as biology) was suppressed harshly.
Nobody called any pilots “inferior people”. However, growing in a military system for a half dozen years with hardware built by people within the same system will lead to better use than hauling the tech to another country and giving a guy some flying lessons (which yes, is essentially what was done).
Now it is true that after two decades other nations were using Russian MiGs to better capacity, because they had had the time to “grow into” them (lack of a better term). Being a veteran pilot doesn’t mean one will have the feel for new hardware without extensive continual training in it.
Hey, its always good to look at the other guy’s stuff – but that doesn’t mean its better, just different and built to a different set of requirements and with a different set of capabilities.
There are all sort of apocryphal stories about the Soviets using acquired American technology. The best one is the idea that the AA-2 Atoll (first Soviet IR missile) was developed from a captured AIM-9 Sidewinder. How’d the get the missile? During a Chinese/Taiwanese skirmish, an F-86 fired a Sidewinder at a MiG, hit it, but the missile didn’t explode. So the MiG got back to base with a Sidewinder in its tail. Shortly thereafter… here comes the AA-2!
Similar tales exist for the AA-9. The rumor there is that it’s a AIM-54 Phoenix copy, based off of samples transferred from Iran after the Revolution.
Another fun rumor has the entire Iranian Phoenix stock was sabotaged by Grumman contractors before they left.
Strangely enough, the Iranians appear to have modified their F-14s to fire HAWK SAM missiles. Strange. It’s also strange to try and figure out where the heck the Iranians get spare parts for their F-4, F-5s, and F-14s.
You’ve only been saying that the US isn’t being out-competed in education.
I’ve given a source (perhaps not the strongest, but better than the nothing you’ve offered) that says the US is lacking in engineering grads. Now, do you care to dispute that with a source of your own?
You provided a quote, not a source. It’s the difference between journalism and academia.
Even if that number is true, I suspect some fuzzy labelling. Russia might produce 140,000 people who call themselves engineers, but where are they working? They certainly aren’t inventing shit in Russia.
It seems that the United States and Canada do awfully well for themselves for being 5-10 years behind their counterparts, over and underspecialized, etc.
If your measures of education are showing the US and Canada as bad and Russia and Poland as good, I think there’s something wrong with the measuring tool.
