Reality is irrelevant. I guess it’s idiot governments from here on out.
Idiot religions are already here. Islam is all made up. None of it is real. Like most religions in the world. Yet you care about the opinions of people who believe it right? Why dont you care about the concerns of non Muslims?
It’s all made up, which makes it all the more ridiculous to exacerbate by overreaction a negligible threat that can be dealt with socially and by good policework.
Immigrants integrate and even assimilate if you let them.
Totally, the example of my home city I posted above and (I hope) my personal example, I am an immigrant who has tried to fit in as well.
What cant be fixed by good policework and assimilation is say the fate of girls or gay people or atheists in any number of self declared Islamic Republics.
In some of those places we would not be having this discussion at all. And you and I saying islam is all made up wouldn’t be regarded as something people may or may not agree with. It would be a crime, punishable by death.
A huge project of Western Europe’s problems with immigrants, in countries such as France as an example, is that they are openly xenophobic and prevent those groups from being accepted into their society.
The answer isn’t more xenophobia and nationalism. But that’s what you’re seeing. Massive Nazi rallies with literally thousands of people attending in places like Poland and Sweden.
That’s the threat you should be worried about.
fyi I dont live in France but that is not what they say, they say, and I have no reason to disbelieve them is things like this:
Manuel Valls, the Socialist prime minister, has argued that the burkini is “not a fashion item”, but represents the “enslavement of women”
So from their perspective this is not xenophobia but a refusal to back down on women’s rights and secularism. The commitment to secularism is not surprising given the horrors the wars of religion and France’s historical tensions between Protestants and Catholics.
Well i have friends who live there, and it’s absolutely true. But you don’t need to take my word for it, as there a huge amount of stuff online regarding the general xenophobia in France regarding immigrants, if you care to look.
Oh please, give me a fucking break. Of the 11 national holidays in France, 6 are Catholic holidays.
This idea that they are dedicated to secularism is bullshit. Secularism in France means Catholic.
Their history when it comes to trying to being vehemently secular isn’t a great one overall…
Edit: And the French are pretty crazy racist.
Well I will take your word for it, like I say I have not lived there, I was just forwarding you the reason given by both sides of the political aisle in France. Shrug.
The problem with banning specific types of clothing is that in a free society people should be able to wear what they choose.
If you provide people with a strong secular legal framework that protects individual freedoms, and stop freaking out about what they choose to wear, then eventually most of them will realize they don’t have to adhere to weird religious/cultural restrictions and they will die off for the most part.
On the other hand if you ban specific religious and cultural fashion items, then you turn those things into symbols of resistance to oppression while simultaneously encouraging the population to reject integration. Basically it gives power to the worst elements of both sides.
Yes, that was my point? If the cause is a cultural clash, then it should only appear where these cultures clash?
So then it’s NOT migrants who are perpetrating acts of terrorism? I’m confused, are you arguing for or against my question?
Oh I completely agree with you. But I do think the French position comes from a more considered place than just racism. I think they are wrong mind and it hurts not helps. Championing women’s rights by taking away their rights to wear certain clothes seems off to a logical false start regardless.
For me it is very simple. My country, Poland, Hungary…0 islamic attacks, ever.
Western europe with significant islamic population:
Thanks but no thanks. If Merkel insists on islamic immigrant quotas and forcing us to take them in, I will be voting for leaving EU. This country is 80% atheist/non-religous. Islam is not compatible with atheism.
And this “you are more likely to die of car accident or whatever than terrorist attack” - FUCK OFF. I was at belgian airport in Brussels two days before a bomb exploded there. Comparing accidents to intentional mass murders is a nasty apologist false equivalence.
And this “If only Europeans weren’t so racist and xenophobic, Islamists would stop mass murdering them” idea…do you hear yourselves?
That’s certainly an eye-catching correlation.
Look, take France for example. According to Wikipedia, there’s been a significant muslim population since at least the 70’s, yet it’s only in the last 5 years that islamic terrorism has been a major thing.
Why are they being radicalised now?
I don’t know. I have no answers, only questions.
I just feel that saying that muslim immigration leads to terrorist attacks is an oversimplification, and I worry that we’re missing some crucial point. I worry that if we’re not finding and addressing the real issue we’re not going to be able to alleviate the problem.
The relative acceptance of immigrants by the US, most Commonwealth, Scandinavian and many European countries are more the exception than norm. For example the Japanese are wonderful, polite people but by all accounts they are never fully accept immigrants. Historically and even today, xenophobia is the norm in a majority of countries.
It is facile to say that country X should be more accepting. It is equally facile to say that Muslim aren’t assimilating like other immigrants groups. I think every large migrations in history has generated a response by the natives that “these people are dangerous, they aren’t fitting in, they are taking over”. But it also true that assimilation by some groups has been easier than other. For instance in the US Southeast Asians have quickly been assimilated. Indian-American have the an average income of $115,000 almost twice as much as whites, and over represented in everything from spelling bee winners, to small business owners. (e.g the Simpson Apu). This despite not looking “American”, have some strange customs like arranged marriages, turbans and having names that average American find unpronounceable.
It seems pretty clear that Muslim in most of Europe aren’t going to be an easy group to assimilate, I’m sure there is blame on both sides.
Poland and Hungry are far right, autocratic and illiberal (small l) governments. “Forcing us to take them in” - you mean refugees? But a bigot isn’t going to understand the difference, are they?
This country is 80% atheist/non-religous.
Which country? Poland, the country whose freedoms are being demolished in the name of the Catholic Church? Yet you think refugees are going to destroy your way of life?
Poland:
We’ve spent trillions of dollars, seen civil liberties willingly eroded, killed 100’s of thousands of people, caused enormous trauma in the lives of military families, facilitated the rise of ISIS, all in the name of combating the Islamic jihadist bogeyman. But taking any steps toward addressing avoidable gun violence? Shrug. Or taking any meaningful measures to mitigate an actual existential threat to all life on the planet? Oh that’s just a hoax.
My guess is that it is a combination of Wahabbi/Salafi proliferation through saudi/qatari funded mosques and the total fuck ups that were Iraq, Lybia, Syria + arab spring not quite turning out the way west hoped. In any case, Islam still provides the ideological cover.
Czechland. I think we, Estonia and China are the most atheistic countries on the planet.
And Orbán won yet again. I have no illusions about him, but like it or not, people who do not experience islamic mass murders in their countries will want to keep it that way, even if it means voting guy like Orbán in. You calling them bigot ain’t gonna convince them otherwise.
Did you read that article you linked?
The legacy of the 1968 generation, the changing role of women, the acceptance of homosexuality, the multicultural ideal: To voters like Fessler, such ideas make their homeland feel just as foreign as do minarets and women wearing headscarves.
People had the feeling that as they were struggling to obey all the rules, others – including women, minorities and immigrants – moved past them in the line waiting for the American Dream
White nationalists afraid of change. But it’s all the fault of leftist and liberals discounting their “feelings.” Yeah, okay.
Nothing is going to convince them. Logic doesn’t work, so may as well call it for what it is. Those refugees they’re so afraid of, those refugees want for their families what families everywhere want. But automatically assuming they’re all going to grow up as Islamic mass murderers “because they hate our freedom” isn’t going to change anything. This will surely perpetuate a world where differences are viewed as a threat.
I’m not sure how to respond to the fact that somehow you missed every point being made so I guess I wont.
Take it easy.