Direct Soviet Union comparisons make sense when you use them? I mean, I don’t necessarily agree with T’s assertion about the uniqueness of the Arab media/religious front, but that is an ignorant and shortsighted comparison at best.
It’s a question for Brett, really - what’s so unique about the Arab world being “reared on hate” that war and rebuilding their culture by force (to paraphase what I’ve gathered is his intention - sorry If I’m wrong here) is the only working option? I was using the USSR’s “poisonous public media” as a comparision point.
Lum: I like your list better than my half-assed one, although Camp C is unnecessary on this board. Nobody here is arguing from a position of Islamic fundamentalism. I would make a minor change to 4b to specify that civilian deaths are war crimes only if the deaths are caused by military action, although I would include sanctions, interdictions, and blockades in instances where they prevent citizens from obtaining food, water, medical supplies, medical treatment, etc. As for the Star of David/Nazi Jew Badge thing, that association did occur to me, but I felt that considering that the subject was Israel, the Star of David was the most intuitive and appropriate symbol. When I see a Star of David, Nazis are not the first thing I think of.
DeepT: A tank exploding? What exactly does that represent? Disarmament? IEDs? Akira powers?
Flowers: I’m not sure I see the need for the distinction, but if you do, I don’t object to it.
Gav: I’m solidly in both Lum’s Case B and my own Case B, so there’s at least one person who can be catagorized very effectively by these means. I wasn’t aware that the term “collective punishment” was disputed; this being the case, I’m sure it could be changed to something else.
Ed: I’m in Camp B on that one, even if nobody else is. It could have been worded more clearly, though. Rebels or seccessionists, for example, are no longer citizens of their former state, and that state can use force of arms against them without being accused of attacking its own people. However, a state beset by a serious revolutionary threat is likely to already be doing some questionable things. Also, coercing the payment of taxes and fees is not criminal, provided that the revenues are spent for the common good. A police force, militia, National Guard, or other armed body responsible for keeping order is not illegitimate provided that it works to serve the public, takes reasonable care to avoid the abuse of force, punishes and removes members who take improper actions in an official capacity, is answerable to civil authority, and follows the bounds of relevant law. Similarly, a standing army is not criminal in nature simply by virtue of bearing arms. I hope this makes my position more understandable to you, even if you don’t share it.
I’m not comparing Islamism to Communism; the more natural comparison is to fascism. I mean, I’m asking for it here, but look at the camps that Hamas and Hizballah run for kids. They’ve got them marching, in brown uniforms, giving fascist salutes, reciting jihadist propaganda about how great it will be to kill a Jew, or die in the act of trying to kill Jews. That sound like the Hitler Youth to anybody?
The Arab media is loaded with this stuff, too. Constant racist caricatures. The reinforcement of sickeningly racist stereotypes and asserting how Jews drink blood and how the Protocols of the Elders of Zion (just celebrated in Iran on its 100th birthday!) is a real document revealing how the Jews want to run the world. Editorials that blame the Jews and the Americans for every evil under the sun. And school textbooks in the region feature wonderful passages telling kids how the Jews were descended from pigs and apes. Just the other week, Saudia Arabia promised once again to excise these passages from its school texts.
I don’t blame average people. Kids in the Muslim world are growing up steeped in this stuff, particularly in the idea that God hates Jews and Christians, who at any rate aren’t even human, so I’m not surprised at the rage and violence of this lost generation. But the problem is that we have to face up to this, and stop tolerating this sort of hate propaganda, and stop ignoring how so much of it is derived from core Islamic teachings seen as the literal world of God. Right now, everyone is tiptoeing around the elephant in the room, never daring to even question Islam for fear of being denounced as a racist. As long as we keep doing that, we’re never going to get anywhere, because we’re fighting a phony war.
It’s not about killing anybody; it’s about standing up for Western culture, for secular democracies with freedom of religion and equality between men and women, and for the people in Islamic societies who don’t want to live in repressive medieval theocracies.
I know there are a few people who fall into one side or the other. I don’t think there are any pure A’s on this board, but I know 2 in real life. But you said in the original post that most people fall into one or the other–that’s what I disagree with.
As far as collective punishment goes, you probably want to replace it with something about the (un)acceptability of collateral damage, since that’s what most people advocating the policies see it as.
Oh yeah, that’s right. I’m sorry, perhaps I overstated my case. At the time I wrote it, I was thinking of “most people who participate heavily in Israel threads on this board.” I had a specific half-dozen in mind.
It’s not about killing anybody; it’s about standing up for Western culture, for secular democracies with freedom of religion and equality between men and women, and for the people in Islamic societies who don’t want to live in repressive medieval theocracies.
This is great, and I totally support it. So why the need to demonise others through hyperbole and propaganda? Why don’t you write about the strengths of Western democracy, and how we can influence others to take it up, which is something I totally agree with, rather than portraying Muslims and Arabs as some kind of bizarre caricature stripped from the MEMRI files?
I’m not. I’ve never said that I have issues with average people; I have a problem with the way that the West has been lulled to sleep with “religion of peace” banalities and ignoring how the Islamic world is being turned into engines of hate based on specific citations from the Koran and Hadiths. Imams aren’t making up these exhortations to hate Jews and Christians out of whole cloth; they’re reciting it chapter and verse as the literal command of God. We’ve got to face that, and refuse to accept the “oh, it’s just some extremists” excuse, the same way we don’t buy the “oh, it’s in the Bible” crap from fundy Christians who want to outlaw homosexuality.
Sorry to break it down to this, but Islam needs to be, well, called on its shit. An honest appraisal of the hate being spewed from the Muslim world needs to be made. People need to stop hiding behind nonsensical catchwords like “terror” and deal with these issues and their religious motivations openly. We don’t start doing that, then we’ll end up with more and more open wars and more and more violence.
7a. Judging Israel by the same moral standards as anti-Israel organizations such as Hamas or Hezbollah is wrong.
Uh, you got this one flipped. This is the B side viewpoint. Haven’t you ever read a Tim Partlett post?
the Islamic world is being turned into engines of hate
Exactly the kind of thing I was talking about.
Apropro of nothing, it looks like Israel is currently raiding Baalbek (as in flooding the place with helicopters in preparation for commando landings, not merely bombing merrily), which is right in the middle of the Bekaa Valley, traditionally a Syrian/Iranian/Hezbollah stronghold. Wonder if they got a tip that the captured soldiers were being held there. Nothing else makes sense.