Israel's law of return and halakha

The relationship between Israel’s immigration policy and Jewish law seems to pop up on this forum with annoying regularity, so I’m starting a thread which will hopefully address the issue once and for all, and which I can point to the next time the issue comes up.

First, check out the text of the Law of Return: http://www.knesset.gov.il/laws/special/eng/return.htm

Now, look at the history in the ever-reliable wikipedia.

One explanation for this amendment is that the Law of Return attempts to provide sanctuary as a citizen in Israel to anyone who would be persecuted under the Nuremberg Laws. As the Nuremberg Laws did not use a halakhic definition in its definition of Who is a Jew, the Law of Return definition for citizenship eligibility is not halakhic, either. The Law of Return merely provides citizenship for anyone covered under the Nuremberg Laws, but does not necessarily denote Jewish status to those granted citizenship.

A second explanation is that in order to increase immigration levels so as to offset the “demographic threat” posed by the continuing presence and growth of the Palestinian population, the law expanded the base group of those eligible to immigrate to Israel. [citation needed] A third explanation promoted by religious Jews is that the overwhelmingly secular leadership in Israel sought to undermine the influence of religious elements in Israeli politics and society by allowing more secular Jews and their non-Jewish spouses to immigrate.

For a nice discussion of the definition of Judaism for immigration to Israel vis a vis the halakhic definition, I’m going to steal someone else’s discussion of Neusner’s “Hitler is not my Posek.”

>A year or two ago I read a piece by Jacob Neusner entitled, “Hitler is not
>my Posek,” in which he criticized this reasoning. In essence, it makes
>Hitler a supreme halakhic authority, greater than chazal.

(FYI, halacha refers to the Laws of the Torah, and the rabbinacal case
law that has been built around it refering to what is permitted,
forbidden, and required by Jews.)

This is based on two assumptions, both of which are highly
questionable. (I haven’t seen Neusner’s peice, but I argue with your
summary of it.)

  1. It is assumed that the State of Israel is either a halachic state,
    or should base its laws apon halacha.

Israel is not based on halacha, and the few laws it does have based on
halacha, weaken both its moral legitamacy and its societal cohesion.
Claimng that Hitler is made into a halachic authority because of the
actions of Israel would require Israel to be controled by halacha,
which it is not.

  1. That the national homeland of the Jews should allow people viewed
    as Jews by their enemies to be killed.

Israel exists to be a homeland, where Jews can go to when they are not
welcome in other countries. To refuse entry to someone being
persecuted because they are seen as a Jew would be a fundamental
mistake. Allowing them to enter the country as Jews means not that
Hitler is made by us into a halachic authority, but that we
acknowledge his physical ability to kill innocents, and act with
rachmones towords them.

Allowing people whose halachic status as Jews might be questioned to enter
Israel is a moral requirement for Israel. This is both to assert its
morality, and also to demonstrate that it is not dominated by nudniks
who would let someone be persecuted for being Jewish when he was
unable to demonstrate it is true.

For a discussion of racial anti-semitism, we can again turn to wikipedia:

Modern European antisemitism has its origin in 19th century theories—now mostly considered as pseudo-scientific—that said that the Semitic peoples, including the Jews, are entirely different from the Aryan, or Indo-European, populations, and that they can never be amalgamated with them. In this view, Jews are not opposed on account of their religion, but on account of their supposed hereditary or genetic racial characteristics: greed, a special aptitude for money-making, aversion to hard work, clannishness and obtrusiveness, lack of social tact, low cunning, and especially lack of patriotism.

While enlightened European intellectual society of that period viewed prejudice against people on account of their religion to be declassé and a sign of ignorance, because of this supposed ‘scientific’ connection to genetics they felt fully justified in prejudice based on nationality or ‘race’. In order to differentiate between the two practices, the term antisemitism was developed to refer to this ‘acceptable’ bias against Jews as a nationality, as distinct from the ‘undesirable’ prejudice against Judaism as a religion. Concurrently with this usage, some authors in Germany began to use the term ‘Palestinians’ when referring to Jews as a people, rather than as a religious group.

Now, can we please stop talking about the Law of Return as a religious law? Pretty please?

EDIT: removed specific references to one person.

Thanks for making a whole new thread just to troll Tim. Classy.

I thought Reform and Conservative Jews weren’t considered Jews for purpose of Israeli citizenship.

I am totally adding Tim Partlett to my buddy list, though.

Actually, no. Although Tim was the immediate cause.

It’s because I’ve explained this shit piecemeal in about 6 threads over the last couple of years, most recently in the anti-semitism thread about 2 months ago, but the misconceptions never go away. It feels like I’m forever explaining that the law of Return is not based on Jewish law, that it’s not restricted to Orthodox Jews, that Israel is not a religious state, and so on.

So I wanted to collect everything in one place. Next time this topic comes up, I can just point here and have done with it.

Edit: But it’s a fair point, so I’ve removed Tim’s name from the original post.

No, they were always considered Jews. The question was whether conversions performed by Ref and Cons rabbis were valid for citizenship. The interior ministry said they were, the rabbinate said they weren’t.

Eventually the Supreme Court ruled that all conversions counted.

I’ve never said Israel is a religious (theocratic) state. It’s just not secular either.

I’ll just copy and paste my other reply here…

How can an immigration policy that is based on the religion of someone or their ancestors have nothing to do with religion?

My bad on halakhic definition of Jewishness for the Law of Return. It was the definition of the Law of Return until 1970, when it was changed to include the controversial “grandfather clause”. It seems there are a number of explanations for this change, one is yours, that it was to offer wider protection to Jewishness. Another was that it was introduced in order to offset the growing Arab population. Another, was that it was an effort on the part of secular politicians to counter the massive and growing influence of the religious body by allowing more secular and non-Jews into the country.

Now the problem here is that either this law, and it’s companion law banning the spouses of non-Jews (i.e. Arabs), is based on religion or it is based on race. If it is based on religion then Israel is definitely not secular, if it is based on race then it is a racist law making Israel an country operating clearly racist laws (and thus making comparisons with apartheid fair).*

Now what’s it going to be? You can’t have it both ways. You can’t claim Israel has no racist laws because Jewishness is a religion, and then say it is a secular government because these laws are based on race and not religion. It’s one or the other, or even both. I accepted, after a previous discussion on this law with an Israeli, that this was a religious issue, not racist. Now you are saying the exact opposite.

*It can of course still not be secular, this law would just prove it to be a racist country not non-secular.

First of all, you said “It’s not surprising, then, that Israeli law is just like the Mishna.” That would make Israel a theocratic state. It would actually be very surprising to most Israelis that Israeli law is just like the mishna.

Second, if you’re now saying that Israeli law has some religious elements and some secular elements, then it’s in pretty good company–lots of countries have some mix.

How can an immigration policy that is based on the religion of someone or their ancestors have nothing to do with religion?

Because it’s based on ethnicity. Zionism was a movement created by non-religious Jews. It was a response to racial antisemitism, which believed that Judaism is an ethnicity, not a religion. (Did you read the wikipedia entry on racial anti-semitism?)

Even if you personally happen to think it’s just a religion, there are a lot of people who don’t agree, and there are lots of non-religious (or even Christian) Jews who are dead because of their ancestry, not their religion. This can’t possibly be news to you. I’m trying very hard not to be condescending and snide here, but it’s the crux of the argument–lots of Jews are dead, because lots of people don’t like their gene pool. Yet you write as if we live in a world were none of that ever happened.

Did you read my wikipedia link to racial antisemitism before posting?

My bad on halakhic definition of Jewishness for the Law of Return. It was the definition of the Law of Return until 1970, when it was changed to include the controversial “grandfather clause”. It seems there are a number of explanations for this change, one is yours, that it was to offer wider protection to Jewishness. Another was that it was introduced in order to offset the growing Arab population. Another, was that it was an effort on the part of secular politicians to counter the massive and growing influence of the religious body by allowing more secular and non-Jews into the country.

OK. Two of those reasons are not religious, one is explicitly anti-religious.

Now the problem here is that either this law, and it’s companion law banning the spouses of non-Jews (i.e. Arabs), is based on religion or it is based on race. If it is based on religion then Israel is definitely not secular, if it is based on race then it is a racist law making Israel an country operating clearly racist laws (and thus making comparisons with apartheid fair).*

Not really. It’s true that it’s based on ethnicity, but that puts it in the same category as other Laws of Return. (C.f. Ireland’s law that anyone with an Irish grandparent can immigrate to Ireland. Is Ireland an apartheid country? Germany, Norway, Poland, Greece all have similar laws. Are they all apartheid countries?)

The Palestinian spouses thing is recent, and is because of the security situation. Yes, it’s racist (sort of–I believe other Arab nationalities are exempt) and all sorts of bad words, and, no, I don’t think it’s a good law. OTOH, if the Palestinians didn’t think that suicide bombing was such an effective political tool, maybe the law wouldn’t have been enacted.

You can’t have it both ways–you can’t call for the destruction of a country (or elect a government which does so) and expect to get citizenship in that country.

Now what’s it going to be? You can’t have it both ways. You can’t claim Israel has no racist laws because Jewishness is a religion,

I’ve never claimed this. I’ve never claimed that Israel has no racist laws, and certainly the de facto treatment of Arabs is bad (I’m pretty sure I’ve even posted to that effect), although I believe that it’s improving, especially over the last 15 years. And I’ve never claimed that Jewishness is exclusively a religion.

and then say it is a secular government because these laws are based on race and not religion. It’s one or the other, or even both. I accepted, after a previous discussion on this law with an Israeli, that this was a religious issue, not racist. Now you are saying the exact opposite.

Since this Israeli seems to have given you the impression that the Law of Return is based on halakha, I don’t know that I’d trust his opinion particularly. He certainly didn’t do his civics classes propely–this stuff should’ve been covered there. (I know, because my wife got a teaching certificate, and the history of zionism is part of the curriculum). Alternatively, you misunderstood him.

I think the religious/racist divide is a false dichotomy, though. It’s more of a nationalist issue–Jews need a haven state, because they’ve been persecuted as a people (not only as a religion) through history. Maybe that’s racist–but, if so, it’s driven by the racism of the rest of the world. If racial anti-semitism didn’t exist, there’d probably be no zionism, and almost certainly no state of Israel. But it does exist.

First of all, you said “It’s not surprising, then, that Israeli law is just like the Mishna.” That would make Israel a theocratic state. It would actually be very surprising to most Israelis that Israeli law is just like the mishna.

Nice work taking that quote out of context. I was specifically talking about the law in regards to the death penalty, which is, remarkably, almost exactly as it is defined in the mishna. I’ve never said Israel is a theocratic state, only that it is not secular.

Whether you make Jewishness an ethnicity or not, it is still also a religion and any country that is set up for a particular religion, and not for all religions in the country, can not be secular. You can make all the excuses for why it is like it is, and I may agree or at least sympathise with those reasons, but it is not and can never be a secular country while it supports one religion over another.

Comparing Israel’s Law of Return with those of nations like Germany and Ireland is completely false. Those laws are based on where the ancestors of these people were born, Israel’s Law of Return is based on the religion of these ancestors. Few, if any, had ancestors who were born in Israel. That’s what makes this law a religious, even racist, one, because the law doesn’t equally apply to those born in Israel but who do not have Jewish ancestors.

Imagine Germany allowing all those with German born grandparents to return to Germany, except Jews.

That’s really…umm…interesting. As in, made up. Do you actually know how the death penalty is defined and administered in the mishna?

I give up on the rest.

You’ve been wrong (and yet so adamant) about so much stuff, from the definition of the law of Return, to the history of zionism, to the identity between the halakhic and Israeli laws of the death penalty, that I don’t even know what to say. Because, whatever I write, you’ll come back equally positive about some new “fact” that I’ll have to chase down and refute.

I’ve said what I want to say about racial antisemitism and its relationship to the state of Israel. You don’t want to know about it. Fine, your prerogrative. Just as it’s my prerogative to call you willfully ignorant.

Edit: But I had to respond to this line:

Imagine Germany allowing all those with German born grandparents to return to Germany, except Jews.

Or maybe even expelling people with Jewish grandparents, or even killing them. Gosh, that is hard to imagine. I guess there’s no such thing as a Jewish ethnicity after all.

Then it’s my prerogative to call you a liar. The only thing I’ve made a mistake on is that the halakhic definition of Jewishness ceased being the definition after 1970. I admitted that, and it was no big deal. It doesn’t prove you right. We’ve not even discussed “the history of zionism” so how the hell can I have made an error there?

You can’t argue seriously with what I have said, and so you just throw insults at me.

Jewishness is first and foremost a religion. It might be considered an ethnicity as well, but even then it is still a religion. When you invite the grandsons of Jews who aren’t Jewish any more it is still about religion, because it’s religion that defines their rights via their ancestors. If you make your country for one particular religion, and then favour those of one particular religion in your laws, that’s not secular. There can be no argument.

Yeah, good idea.

You’re right, Tim. You’re right about everything, including Israeli death penalty law being identical to mishnaic law. I just can’t argue with someone who’s right about everything.

Mea culpa, mea maxima culpa.

Edit:
I try not to get snide, and you post shit like this:

It might be considered an ethnicity as well,

Might? More than 6 million Jews are dead because it’s been considered an ethnicity. It takes chutzpah to post something like that while living in Germany.

I didn’t say it was identical, I said it was almost exactly the same. You said yourself: “the mishna effectively proscribes the death penalty–the barriers it puts in place are so difficult as to be unenforceable.” The law on the death penalty in Israel seems to me to be exactly the same: the death penalty is allowed, but the barriers put in place make it nearly impossible for it to be carried out; it has been used only once.

We are disagreeing on a point. You don’t seem any more likely to change your mind than I am. So why am I the one who is “right about everything” and not you? At least I can admit when I make a mistake. You said all Rabbinical opinion is universally opposed to the death penalty. When I showed the most prominent American Rabbi saying that the death penalty can be used in some circumstances, did you admit you were wrong?

Oh no. Just more insults.

If we followed your rules of debate, Gav, we’d be royally screwed. An Iranian could trump every single opinion on this forum, just by having lived in Iran. They would know more about Iran than anyone else here, and so anyone claiming Iran had abused human rights would automatically be “wrong” and “ignorant” if this Iranian said so.

Differences of opinion don’t seem to exist in your world. Just right and wrong. And you are always right, eh? :)

Might? More than 6 million Jews are dead because it’s been considered an ethnicity. It takes chutzpah to post something like that while living in Germany.

Why not go the whole hog and call me an anti-semite? I know you’re itching to. It’s such an easier way of scoring points in an argument. I might be living in Germany, but I am English. We fought the Germans in WW2, remember? Not that my nationality has anything to do with this discussion.

You know, I changed my wording on that sentence that outraged you so much a couple of times, trying to find the most sensitive way of writing it. Last time I suggested Jewishness might be considered an ethnicity I was practically accused of being a Nazi.

You’re using every cheap trick in the book at the moment, Gav. Insulting me, bringing my personal status into the debate, charging the discussion emotionally by bringing up the holocaust, etc. Your whole language is borderline ranting.

If you can’t debate a subject without getting into a rage, then don’t bother.

By whom? I don’t know any actual Jew who would dispute the claim that being a Jew is equally a religion and an ethnicity. As I’ve mentioned before, even the Canadian census recognizes this. So maybe it’s just Canada that’s fully aware of this, but I don’t think so. I’m too lazy to do the research of other countries’ census categorization of “Jewish”, I’ll leave that to someone who cares more than I do about this particular argument.

To be fair, you must not forget the context of controlling mothers expressing to their sons a preference for particular characteristics in potential brides.

This would be filed under, "A drunken, angry, and heartbroken request for clarification of the directive to, “Marry a nice Jewish girl.”