Timex
3095
Chris Mathews is talking to some of the most uneducated voters ever, and Trump’s election makes total sense.
But we also need Democrats who aren’t afraid to push back against the absurdity that climate change is somehow a “liberal” issue. I’m also increasingly frustrated with people who evoke “political reality” as if unaware that this is itself a human construct potentially subject to swift change. However hard we’re pushing on climate, it’s not hard enough, IMO. You can still fix the other stuff but climate needs to be absolutely front and center: anything else is an affront to truth.
And that ignores the fact that the economy/society as a whole will benefit greatly from loan forgiveness (at least of outstanding loan amounts above a certain threshold), and some share of that will redound to the material benefit of most in society. “Everybody does better when everybody does better.”
magnet
3098
Sure, but there is a weird and arbitrary dividing line between those who used to be in debt and those who are still in debt.
It’s like making a distinction between people who pay for dinner with a debit card and those who pay with a credit card. They are both out $X, regardless of whether the payment is deducted immediately or will be paid later in the month. So if you advocate for a policy of refunding everyone who paid for dinner with a credit card, but not those who paid with a debit card, then you are bound to raise eyebrows.
If you want to pay for everyone’s dinner, wouldn’t the economy/society benefit regardless of what sort of plastic they used? If so, then likewise you should just pay $X to everyone who had a tuition bill, regardless of whether they are currently in debt.
Yup.
I had not heard about a flag, but even an even handed examination of his early politics shows that he allied himself with people who were Communists.
Personally, I doubt that he was ever pro-Soviet Union or pro-Communism as much as anti-capitalism as it has fallen out in our nation. But still, if he were the Dem candidate, this would become an effective avenue of attack for the Republicans, and a great fit for their longtime claim that liberals and progressives and socialists and communists are pretty much the same thing. He still might beat Dump, but it would have a terrible effect on the Dem image and all the other races.
Sure, but if the problem is defined as ‘there are a lot of people not participating fully in the economy because they’re buried under a mountain of student debt’, giving everyone $4000 doesn’t solve that problem. You’re going to need a lot more money, which creates the need to draw the line somewhere.
magnet
3101
I actually think that even $4000 would help a lot of people.
The average tuition for a two year college is less than $4K. The average in-state tuition for a public university is $10K. In both cases, $4K would make a huge impact.
The average student debt, including people who choose to go to a private university and pay for room and board, is $37000. Of course $4000 a year won’t pay that off immediately. But if the student also contributes $300 a month, then the student debt would be fully paid off in six years.
Is $300 a month still a crushing burden that prevents people from participating fully in the economy? I don’t know. But for comparison, the average auto loan payment is $400-$500 a month with an average term that is longer than 6 years.
In other words, if we would be still worried about the economic effects of student loan debt despite an extra $4K/yr, then we should be even more worried about the economic effects of auto loan debt.
CraigM
3102
One is dischargable, fully voluntary, and is predominantly doesn’t fall upon 20 year olds without a job.
And the averages are highly skewed too. $37000 includes a lot of people with negligible debt and a lot of people with 6 figure debt.
You wouldn’t say that the average per capita income is $54k so there isn’t a problem with people not earning a living wage, would you?
Sweet Christ, really? My girlfriend and I were gobsmacked at the $250/mo, 6-year payment on her car. Then again her credit is atrocious. . . but even then it was a used vehicle >.>
Yo. Americans are incredibly stupid about cars. Dumbasses carry credit card debt month to month and don’t blink at borrowing $50k over seven years so they can drive a massive tank that gets 15mpg.
I don’t get it.
CraigM
3105
Shit yes. Paid cash for a brand new $20k car that got 55mpg when new. And still gets 47mpg with 95k miles on it.
America’s SUV obsession is stupid. And also a big part of why the big three had major financial difficulties in 2007, they had all but abandoned the small car market to foreign manufacturers. Now president dumb fuck wants to tax those manufacturers because US car makers have literally stopped making cars, only making asshole mobiles.
Because there is a linear correlation between the size of the passenger vehicle and the likelihood said driver is an asshole.
magnet
3106
More Americans lack a college education than lack a car. So I don’t know why you consider college less “voluntary” than car ownership.
Auto debt is also highly skewed. Some people want to finance a Lexus, just like some students want to go to a private school and pay room and board. Some people pay cash for an older used car, just like some students end up with no debt on graduation.
Since we’re occasionally fond of contrasting the wasteful American way of life to that of our enlightened European friends, I’ll point out that commuting to university from the parent’s home is often the norm over there. And I suppose this is a good time to mention research that it doesn’t really matter where you go to college.
Some people do dumb shit, so we should throw our hands up and not try to arrange society in such a way as to incentivize less dumb shit, or lower the bar for the ability to choose less-dumb-shit, or increase information available so that people can make better informed decisions that hopefully include less dumb shit!
Hard pass.
magnet
3108
I’m not sure if I understand you correctly. But if by “dumb shit” you mean “paying too much for college”, then offering $4K / year (as suggested above) would certainly incentivize not doing dumb shit, because it can completely cover the tuition bill of some schools and make a big impact on the bill for many others.
Menzo
3109
Giving everyone $4k a year for college would just mean colleges will raise their prices by $4k. It solves nothing.
I’d rather address the problem of cost first, then deal with those overburdened with loans.
At best, deal with them as a package.
magnet
3110
Actually, that $4K figure arose in an offhand discussion of universal basic income. So it could be applied to college, or a car, or simply spent entirely on Steam sales.
Timex
3111
Menzo’s point is still valid.
If you simply give money to potential consumers, you are going to be increasing the demand signal, which will result in increased prices.
Matt_W
3112
Student loan forgiveness is tricky. It’s alarmingly regressive fiscal policy, and I’m not sure how to square that. Maybe a public service program, where loan forgiveness is conditioned on some term of (paid) public service in your field which length depends on the total amount of forgiveness. But any program that dumps a bunch of money onto people with college degrees specifically can’t help but exacerbate inequality. I don’t know. I guess in pure economic terms, I’d prefer an overall bulking up of the safety net so that even with loan repayment, 20-somethings aren’t living hand-to-mouth. We also need to have some kind of well-crafted regulatory mechanism that can reduce the cost of college, which is out of control: remove gov’t backstopping of educational loans, tie non-profit status to tuition costs, ???
A major issue is that decisions about college tuition are being made by high school students. I remember as a high school student having some anxiety about repaying college loans, but given that I had no idea at all about wages, taxes, and day-to-day costs of maintaining my own household, it was an impossible thing to ask me to imagine how repayment might affect my life. The life of a new college grad with a nascent career living on their own for the first time is vastly different than a high school student living with their parents. Once you start throwing up ridiculous numbers in multiples of $10,000, they just seem big and it’s hard to get a sense of scale or effect.
Timex
3113
See, THIS seems like a good idea.
magnet
3114
That depends. If you subscribe to MMT, then under certain circumstances you can “print money” without adverse inflationary consequences. It’s a matter of unused capacity.
But I digress. If handing out money to everyone really is inflationary, then so is handing out money only to people in debt.
