I’m going to continue to rail against this whole strain of identity politics woven through the big tent I’m currently under.

I’m all for someone besides an old safe white guy. I will enthusiastically support whoever ends up being the Democratic nominee. But I will also not be disappointed or saddened if a white dude gets it, so long as everyone feels like every credible hopeful had a fair shake. If Harris or Warren seem like they’re getting railroaded or shouted down or endlessly questioned about whether they’re “presidential enough” or “too screechy” or whatever coded bullshit is en vogue, fuck that whole thing and we should fix the process and/or fire the gatekeepers in the party and in the media. But if…idk, Hickenlooper or Inslee or someone by some miracle catches fire and ignites the party and the base and captures the nomination, I’m not going to be mad about it.

Fuck’s sake. We just elected a black guy (biracial, I know, but IIRC he identifies more or less as black) and ran a woman. We have, as credible nominees who look to me like they’re being treated fairly: a black woman, an old white woman, a gay white guy, and a middle-aged white woman. Of those, three are top-tier candidates alongside two old white guys.

I think we can ease off of “is the Democratic party willing to nominate and give real power to women, POC, and non-traditional gender roles.”

Heh, didn’t mean to trigger anyone. Just meant I hope the nominee is one of: Mayor Pete, Harris or Warren. That’s who I am rooting for and my shorthand-phrase was just a handy way to group them together. Sheesh :)

Well, if someone were to not be a fan of Booker and Harris for some specific policy reasons, and then express that “I hope the nominee isn’t black” you can see where people might be ‘triggered’, right?

I hope the nominee isn’t a Russian collaborator.

Yup, the fault is entirely mine.

No worries. It’s a thing I see around and it drives me nuts, hope I didn’t come across as taking a personal shot at you as that wasn’t my intention.

Adam’s right that there’s definitely an oddly common view among many that it’d somehow be inherently bad to elect a white guy.

It’d be bad to only accept election of a white guy… but saying that being a white guy would make someone inherently unqualified is just another form of bigotry.

I don’t think I’ve seen someone say that being a white guy would make them unqualified. I’ve seen plenty of people saying they hope it’s anything but, but I interpret that as meaning they don’t want to stay with the status quo when they feel significant change is needed.

OTOH there are lots of qualified women on the ticket. In over 50 presidential elections exactly 0 women have won. The cultural significance of having a woman be president is hard to overstate. And the cultural barriers to having a woman be president are not insignificant. It’s time. It would be one thing if there simply weren’t any great female candidates (narrator: there have always been great female candidates), but we have several this time around that are excellent, credible, competitive, in the race, and occupy a range of policy positions within the party. The only compelling argument for electing an old white guy is electability, which defeats itself out of the gate. There are plenty of compelling reasons for making history.

It’s not bigotry to suppose that the reason we’ve only had male presidents to date isn’t because men are just better at being presidential. Perhaps there’s another reason? Maybe in order to “level the playing field” we need to give out handicaps. I’d vote for a white guy in the primary if he had superpowers or the adulation of billions or something. If not, I’m voting for a woman. I want my daughter to have that example.

It clearly should not be murder to cause a miscarriage. It should be assault–a crime against the mother–with maybe ending her pregnancy as an aggravation. The contradiction is on-purpose. Fetal murder laws are specifically there to lay the ground for abortion restrictions. It’s not a coincidental ambiguity.

Yes, this was covered by my statement where I specifically addressed the flip side, pointing out that it’s bigotry to assume that a non white guy couldn’t do the job. What exactly do you mean by “leveling the playing field”?

Why isn’t it enough to simply be the best, most qualified candidate?
Who does it help for you to vote for someone who you feel is actually less qualified? How is that different than voting for a less qualified white guy, just because he’s white?

You’re really so sure about this?
Because if a woman is in the later terms of pregnancy, and you assault her and cause a miscarriage, you’re causing some immensely different form of harm to her and her family, even if you choose to ignore the fetus itself.

There comes a point in a pregnancy where people are making plans for their lives. They are expecting a child to become part of their life. Such an act is removing that person from their future.

It’s cruel of you to deny those aspects and pretend like it’s just another assault.

He just upped the ante today with his “Douglass Plan” aimed at “countering racial inequality” (named after the guy who we are hearing more and more about these days). Whether it’s going to be successful or whether it’s going to be panned as pandering, that will be up to the community that it targets.

Some interesting stuff in there:

His “Douglass Plan” aims to establish a $10 billion fund for black entrepreneurs over five years, invest $25 billion in historically black colleges, legalize marijuana, expunge past drug convictions, reduce the prison population by half and pass a new Voting Rights Act to further empower the federal government to ensure voting access.

His campaign says it is equal in scale to the Marshall Plan, which used the equivalent of approximately $100 billion at current value to rebuild Europe after World War II. Buttigieg says the program would be enacted alongside potential direct reparations for slavery, not in place of it.

The two-term mayor also supports a constitutional amendment to abolish the death penalty, and intends to expand the Supreme Court and eradicate the Electoral College.

Buttigieg ties these lofty goals like changing the Constitution to his campaign’s central theme of generational change.

“I don’t know where we got the idea that it’s impossible to do these things,” he said. “This is a country that changed the Constitution so you couldn’t buy a drink and then changed its mind and changed it back. Are you really telling me that we are incapable of using one of the most elegant features of our constitutional system?”

Also an interesting take on changing the constitution.

If a woman can see and you assault her with a knife and blind her, you’ve cause irreparable damage to her life and well-being forever. If you break her legs and they don’t heal probably and she has to use a cane for the rest of her life, that’s going to affect her forever. PTSD is a permanent condition. Ending someone’s pregnancy is like those. Assault leaves scars. It’s a serious fucking crime that involves serious prison time. But, it’s not murder.

Today, in June of 2019, 26% of Democrats and Independents still are uncomfortable with a woman being president. Maybe, just maybe that has something to do with why we haven’t had a woman president.

  1. Even most Democratic voters aren’t using this criterion. They’re most concerned about electability, which has nothing to do with “most qualified.” There are many criteria by which we might choose a candidate and “most qualified” is among the least of them.
  2. The field is wide and strong. 22 candidates, at least a dozen of whom would probably do a fine job in office. They’re all qualified. In that context, making history seems more important to me.
  3. I’ve had to work to overcome my own socialized prejudices in this regard. One of the ways I do that is: given a choice among generally equally qualified candidates, I always choose the woman. I do this in ways big and small. I do it when I choose characters in a video game. My daughter sees me doing it and knows both that she’s got a headwind and that I’ve got her back.

Sounds like roughly the same debate as for/against affirmative action programs.

The abortion discussion is interesting, but I’m gonna move that into the abortion thread, if no one minds.

Yes, but hose people are dumb. They’re making a mistake if they refuse to vote for someone who is less qualified, based on their gender.

But you’re suggesting that you would do exactly the same thing, in order to somehow counter their dumbness… even if it meant you were electing someone who you yourself feel is less qualified/electable/etc.

No, I think electability actually does play into qualifications, during a primary election. Being able to go on to win the general election is a qualification.

Note, however, that I would tend to think that a lot of that metric is in fact just some rebranding of bigotry, where those folks are attributing “electability” to “being an old white guy”, and I think that’s a mistake on their part.

This seems acceptable to me, if you actually believe that two candidates are equally qualified and the only difference is that one ends up being additionally representative of some minority group, so be it.

I was more taking issue with the notion that only by meeting some herculean measurement, such as having super powers, would a white guy possibly be considered as acceptable. That statement suggests that you would vote for a much less qualified woman, simply on the basis of her gender.

I think I can explain the difference here.

For such programs, you are talking about mandating a requirement on employers because you do not believe that those employers would actually do a fair assessment of potential hires.

But in the case here, we’re talking about our own votes. You don’t need to impose some kind of affirmative action on yourself, because you can simply choose to evaluate candidates equally.

Yeah, the analogy isn’t perfect. I’m just reflecting that the underlying motivations have non-trivial overlap, at least for me. YMMV, of course.

If Biden ends up as the nominee he’s gonna lose. I don’t care what current polls say. The advantages of incumbency are massive, and Biden just isn’t that good a campaigner. Plus he’s out of touch, and he’s a walking gaffe machine. I really hope that Dem voters aren’t that clueless.

Gravel not fucking around

I love the surprise reveal at the end.

(That this Mike Gravel person is actually running for President. He must be one of the few candidates who didn’t qualify for either debate).

Hi my name is Armando Penblade and I hardcore stanned for Gravel in the early stages of his '08 run until the Libertarian switch debacle (which was, truly, some dumbass shit). He was on the forefront of a ton of highly progressive causes back in the day.

Even now, dude’s got a reasonably good head on his shoulders, especially for a STRAIGHT OLD WHITE MAN

(Hi @inactive_user I love you)

Apparently his current campaign’s more or less openly stated that he’s running to inject his platform into the overall contest, but definitively not to win. Which is. . . eh? I feel like most of the positions made him something of a iconoclast within the Democratic party in 2008 are way more mainstream in the overall candidate pool in 2020. Then again, anyone actually willing and able to launch some attack ads on Biden from the left flank still gets a big ol’ thumbs up from me.