I still wonder what would have happened if Hillary had doubled down on the Deplorables thing and delivered an FDR-esque “I welcome their hatred” speech.
Oh well, we’ll never know now. It’s possible that being unapologetic doesn’t work as well for Democrats since sheer pig-headedness isn’t so much a part of their brand.
antlers
3939
People will give up a lot of other freedoms for the freedom to hate without shame.
Isn’t the appeal of the current form of right-wing populism that it allows white Americans (or whichever nationality) to continue ‘feeling good’ by ignoring unsavory aspects of America whereas a more progressive platform would seek to addresses these issues and thus confront people with these problems? It’s like, don’t worry that police are killing black men with impunity, everything’s fine, they probably deserved it. Don’t worry that poor people can’t afford medical bills, the health care system’s fine. Don’t worry that the US was built on slavery and labor exploitation, that was a long time ago and everything’s fine now. Don’t worry that the US has been a net-negative on the world since 1950, our foreign policy’s fine and needs no adjustments. Reagan and Clinton were great presidents, don’t worry about what gay and minority people say about them.
It’s easy to feel good all the time when you don’t worry about anyone but yourself, when you don’t have to reckon with the sins of your collective past.
Enidigm
3941
Sorry, what i meant wasn’t something i directly expressed, but that Sharpe believes that what Democrats need to do is move past over-worrying the details and find a simple message that resonates across a wide spectrum. And underlying his idea is that Democrats are, by and large this election, going to vote D almost no matter who is running.
My point was simply that i’m not sure that jobs is exactly the right drum to beat. You responded with many very reasonable counterpoints that you want a Democratic candidate to pound sand on/for, and my response was that, in this context of trying to find that 5-10% of crossover voters many Republicans just don’t believe the issues you pointed out are an issue because they live in an entirely separate political and economic bubble. So that, as it were, pounding on about adequate housing isn’t going to grab additional voters - it’s just preaching to the choir.
And that led into my point about these points just being “increasing turnout” and that increasing turnout is useful, especially in certain areas moreso than others, but that is adjacent to the Big Tent ideas we’re looking for that “jobs jobs jobs” represents.
Enidigm
3942
There’s a chicken and egg problem here, something that is perhaps uniquely a Republican issue. Perhaps because they’re more religious, perhaps because they’re more traditional, but they really take “moral leadership” more seriously, somewhat paradoxically. Because they’ve sold their souls for low taxes and abortion, it’s become easier and easier to embrace the unsavory aspects of Trump’s leadership as being “right”. At this point i’m not entirely sure, therefore, how much of current Republican horribleness on a person by person judgement came before Trump, or after Trump.
I think Democrats really just underestimate how much Republicans have been trained by decades of propaganda to hate taxes and by proxy the government, and that while there is plenty of culture war stuff going on to the point where all this stuff is mixed up and inseparable, there’s something deeply cathartic to them finally able these people cheering at tearing the government down and howling at Democrats who want to raise taxes. There were plenty of Germans cheering Hitler in 1940 who were quietly appalled at Hitler in 1934, and it’s annoying how susceptible the masses are still today to being manipulated by context and content, something we kind of forget.
Yeah, those are good points. I guess I should have replaced “right-wing populism” with “conservatism.” It’s still largely the same stuff, they’re just louder about it now and more likely to make the subtext the text.
Certainly some do live in a bubble of immunity from economic ills, but it’s perfectly clear that there are some Republican voters who are dismayed that their Republican governors kept them out of the Medicare expansion. There are some Republican voters that want a higher wage. There are some Republican voters who want better schools for their kids. There are some Republican voters who want better housing alternatives. And so on. Maybe there aren’t a lot, but you don’t actually need a lot, and you stand a much better chance getting what you need by campaigning on those real differences rather than campaigning as if you are e.g. Republican Light, or vague promises of jobs which don’t differentiate you in any way from the other side.
This, from Biden, is basically a lie. He’s pretending that his opponents in the primary want to repeal the ACA and then try to pass MFA. It’s nonsense, and a reprehensible misrepresentation of reality.
Hillary said the same against Bernie.
Aka How to get progressives to vote third party in 2020
That strategy won’t get anyone beyond Trump’s base, and scare the folks who might bust on the Dem into voting.
The true far lefties I know, they’re talking bust, but they’re not going to bust- they think their necks are on the line if Trump wins again.
I’d like to see the Dems run on a message of white evangelical hate as well. Say those folks are terrorists who need to be watched/controlled, and Willie Horton folks like Dylan Roof over and over.
Morning consult poll is interesting. On second choice polling, it shows that people who support Biden have Bernie as second choice, and people who support Bernie have Biden as second choice. That can’t be about actual policy. It’s just ‘people who prefer the well-known old white man also prefer the other well-known old white man.’
Timex
3950
Most of them probably just don’t actually know who any of the other people are.
Could be, I guess, but you see the same phenomenon with the others. Harris supporters pick Warren, Warren supporters pick Harris, Buttigieg supporters pick Harris. Those people have surely heard of Biden and Bernie. It seems more like a divide along gender lines, where a substantial number of the poll respondents are down for a traditional white man and no one else.
A chunk of it is people whose main concerns are “anyone but Trump” and “electability” - i,e, people’s perception of how well-known /popular candidates are with other people.
For voters that care mostly about “electability,” Biden and Bernie are the obvious top two, because they’re the ones with the highest name recognition.
Of course the thing about “electability” is that it’s extremely fluid and can change radically in a matter of months - see Obama and Clinton in 2008.
A good many of those people think ‘electability’ means ‘male’.
CraigM
3954
And I wish I could be more certain that these people are wrong today.
With regard to Sanders and electability*, I wonder how anyone thinks that a 77 year-old not particularly tall Jewish guy from NYC is going to get electoral majorities in enough states to get to 270. Biden at least has height going for him.
*and I write this having voted for him in the OR primary in 2016.
Since it’s been proved there’s a metric fuckton of closeted racist misogynist floating voters, the ruthless pragmatist in me really hopes that when faced with
- a candidate whose main purpose to beat Trump
- someone who you think represents you and will implement policies you want
the first is chosen
CraigM
3957
Problem is we don’t all agree what constitutes this.
Some people think it’s old white guy, others think it involves actually having a vision and please FFS not Biden.
