Democratic socialists are dumb.

So considering my wife was 6 months pregnant at the time, very stressful.

Ultimately it worked out well enough, but changing insurance mid pregnancy is absolutely enervating.

I agree with what Buttigieg said, but notice what he did not say. He did not say to ignore the people in your own tent, nor the people who are in between.

The true position of the core GOP is that a vast portion of the people in this country are takers, and they are entitled to nothing. They certainly do not believe that all Americans are entitled to health care. They believe that any such thing in socialist-Communist-immoral theft from productive people. And we are NEVER going to win those people over, never going to shut them up. But those voters we can win without.

What we cannot do is win without the rest of our own tent, and the significant number of voters who could go either way. Especially the former. And a lot of the signaling going on during the primary campaign is designed to excite the more progressive portion of our tent, at the expense of leaving a lot of these others vulnerable to Republican operatives.

Really, you would want exactly the reverse. A candidate who draws in a highly inclusive tent, working to excite those that could possibly stay home or even vote the other way, and who then in office pushes as hard as possible towards our real goals. After all, it is the strays that ought to need the campaign season signaling.

But instead, we have this hangover from '16, when Republican operatives convinced the Sanders supporters that they had been unconscionably wronged, and that they might want to stay home in protest. So now there is this perception that our most secure wing must be wooed with all this signaling.

Good chance it won’t prevent us from beating Trump, but it is very likely to harm us down the ticket, which is what will count the most as far as getting things progressives really want. So there is a huge irony to it all.

(And add in some bashing of religious people and rurals from our side, and it could get even worse.)

To be fair, the DNC made the job of convincing Bernie supporters pretty damn easy for the Republican operatives.

I don’t think it’s going to matter- Trump is going to be tied in too hard with all these shootings and that’s what’s going to do him in. The best way to beat Trump is to convince voters that if Trump wins these sorts of mass shootings will become a daily thing- and Trump is a threat to order.

I know that this is not your main point, but since it has become conventional wisdom among progressives, and because I think it is a distortion, I want to comment.

The whole thing was more a public relations disaster than anything else. If you have a non-Democrat running for the presidential nomination against a Democratic, how could anyone think that the Democratic heads would not favor the Democrat?

In truth, the central Republican Party and the central Democratic Party always get involved in the decision-making. Always have. The pendulum has swung from nearly total control back in my childhood: the cliche of the smoke-filled rooms, the underplayed truth about delegates switching allegiances at the convention in return for political favors… to enormous power of registered Dems in state primaries. Popular control has probably never been higher vis-a-vis central party control than it is now.

But as in pretty much everything in life, the idealized version for children is unattainable. Appearances aside, the people running the party are deeply invested politicians who did not work all their lives to become umpires, but to become political players. And you can bet that this year, they will be looking over the realistic possibilities and trying to influence the outcome, in large part based on pragmatic purposes. In effect, several posters here are urging them to do so – because eliminating some of the names would serve our purposes better. You can bet that other angles will motivate them in other directions.

The GOP and the Russians have some serious gall to use this against the Democrats, given that each has a history light years ahead of us in central powers manipulating things.

That the DNC would try to make anything close go the way of the Dem over the non-Dem (one who has actual Communist ties in his youth)? Sorry, but this is real life here. The only crime was the theft of emails by foreigners to turn this to Republican advantage.

On the other hand, I hope you are right that these shootings will bring political fallout for Trump. I will hope.

Has Bernie made better statement than this? Because this is not good.

Mine is obviously the minority opinion but I think folks are forgetting how despised Bush was by folks on the left. Until Trump he was considered by the left to be the worst President we’d ever seen in our lifetimes and in the top five of worst presidents ever. He gained office thanks to a Supreme Court ruling that his equal protection rights would be violated by a fair and accurate recount of the votes in Florida, he was unintelligent, he used 9/11 and bogus intelligence as a pretext to starting a war in Iraq that we all new he wanted from the day he took office, he was a puppet for the Neo-conservatives, he rammed through a tax cut that swelled the deficit to benefit the 1% and on and on. There was,to my memory, a feeling that he couldn’t possibly win re-election, that the country couldn’t possibly be that dumb and that those of us in the left would show up in droves to vote him out.

I don’t remember the primaries well enough to know if there was a better candidate and I think Kerry would have made a fine president but he was not someone people were passionate about. The attacks on him were unfair but every Democratic nominee faces the same thing. (Obama pals around with terrorists, etc.)

Timex says that this sounds like an argument to nominate someone with a cool personality and I wish this wasn’t the case but it seems like this has been the trend, Clinton oozed charisma and played the saxophone. Bush was a folksy regular guy you’d like to have a beer with. Obama was, well, Obama. Fucking Trump was a reality TV star. Yes, there were other factors at play in all of these elections. especially 2016, but only a small percentage of Americans are actively engaged with current events and policy. A huge percentage of the population votes, or doesn’t vote, based on general impressions. A lot of those people are not terribly intelligent. (See Obama/Trump supporters.)

I think we should pick the best candidate. I hate that Presidential elections often seem like popularity contests and that our media joins in and, to a certain extent, creates the dog pile of superficial takes. (Kerry’s a waffler, Gore’s a boring wonk, Bush is the type of guy you’d like to have a beer with, Clinton is plagued by scandal, etc.) Elections are narratives and too many Americans are terrible at getting off their asses to go out and vote for the reasons that matter. Give them an excuse to stay home and they will.

Finally, something that will likely surprise triggercut is my personal rage inducing frustration that many voters on the left refuse to vote pragmatically. Already on social media I see my progressive friends railing against this nominee or that as being part of the problem and while their concerns and criticisms are often not wrong, they are also creating a narrative where it is unpalatable for them to compromise their morals by voting for a candidate they have qualms about. Some of them will do the right thing nonetheless but it makes me furious that many will sacrifice everything they profess to hold dear to preserve the sanctity of their moral purity. These aren’t people who think their is no difference between Republicans and Democrats. They know the Republicans are way worse but they refuse to pragmatically vote for what they believe to be the lesser of two evils. Our two party system has in some ways made folks oblivious to the idea of voting coalitions wherein you support someone whose politics don’t line up exactly with yours because, working together, you can generate the numbers to control things.

Anyway, that was long and rambling and, as always, it’s just my opinion. There are obviously tons of factors at play in any election and, as triggercut says, I can’t offer much in the way of empirical evidence to support my view, though some of the figures MrGrumpy posted lines up with my recollection – “81 percent of the president’s supporters said they voted for him, rather than against his opponent. In contrast, only 55 percent of Democrats voted for Kerry.” Enthusiasm is at least one important factor in presidential elections. Maybe it shouldn’t be but, as Will Rogers says, “You know how dumb the average American is? Well half of them are even dumber.”

Must be fun to be above the fray pointing out how wrong everyone is!

I wasn’t offering a premise, but a provisional judgment of our voters, to wit: Trump’s awfulness should by itself be sufficient to motivate turnout regardless of the Dem candidate nominated. If it is not so, then so much the worse for my estimation of our electorate.

Too subtle for you, I suppose. ;)

See from my perspective all Republican presidents have been despised by the left. Nixon for obvious reason. Ford wasn’t despise just mocked. Reagan because he was stupid, a war monger, a demagogue, Bush 41 was Reagan 2.0 and also part of the power elite, and finally Bush 43 for all the reason you just enumerated. The level of hatred from Trump is not appreciably higher from the far left members of the party than any other Republican. The difference is that Trump is despised by all Democrats and plenty of independents and even a few Republicans. The recent fondest for Bush 41 by Democrats, is only because the guy is dead and because Trump is so awful, and because human memory is shitty.

Yeah, and this in no small part gives cover to Trump, because he can rightly say, “they say the same thing about everyone on the right!”

Trump is different, but you have folks on the left who undermine that reality by trying to score some kind of retroactive political points.

And a racist. Let’s not forge this part does not start with Trump. Since this is ingrained in that party, of course certain groups will not support that party, so yeah ongoing.

You understand, of course, that Reagan was immensely popular, and won reelection in a landslide. He got freaking 525 electoral votes. He won EVERY STATE except Mondale’s home.

So when you equate him to Trump, you are doing Trump a huge service, and harming your own goals. While gaining absolutely nothing.

Everything else aside, you need to have some sense of tactics here.

He’s not wrong…

Reagan was accused of a ton of things when he was President. I was at school in Berkeley and heard pretty much all of them. The racism charge is pretty recent, because as his daughter pointed out he didn’t say these things in public.

I didn’t actually do that. I said Reagan was racist because he was, and Donald Trump is just following his example in that area.

No it was not that recent, not from anyone.

Reagan was, based on recent evidence, a racist… But i tend to think that virtually everyone of his generation was. Not everyone… But damn near.

But even so, we can compare his reaction to groups like the KKK or the John Birch society, to Trump’s.

https://www.nytimes.com/1984/05/02/us/reagan-spurns-klan-support.html

On one hand, his rejection of the KKK seems trivial… It seems obvious. Any sensible politician, even a racist, would issue such a rejection.

But Trump doesn’t.

His abhorrence is different by an order of magnitude.

I understand the raw logic is linking them. In a historical context, years from now, that linkage can be made.

But today, making that linkage only weakens the arguments against Trump. It only further oils the slippery slope, because people can discount criticisms against him. They can say, “they said the same things about X, and America didn’t end!”

Again, there are times when more tactical plays are required.

You keep pushing, but I am not giving. Again, I said he was racist and Donald Trump is just following his lead. I never said he was actually Donald Trump… and there is a specific group that didn’t really support Reagan by any majority… you know the one that keeps being ignored one someone says everyone liked him.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/2019/07/31/new-reagan-tapes-are-ugly-not-surprising-lot-black-americans/?utm_term=.312e71a06c74

I know, but you are being stuborn, and harming your own goals. That’s what I’m trying to get you to understand.