Timex
4802
When we were kids we only had a local bbs with like 20 people on it, and had to blow our own fingers off with fireworks, rather than embracing Nazism.
The we I refer to is Democrats.
I am not sure whether you are questioning the insults or the effect.
But if you are doubting the insults, all you have to do is read the recent posts in this thread, and substitute in Muslims or immigrants or any group you feel good about, and you will hear the attitude. It’s not “this particular jerk from red America” but rather disgust at having to consider the feelings of millions of American people. This is what I have been hearing for years, and it just keeps getting worse.
And beyond this, the constant statements that all political opposition – even all resentments towards change that occurred in recent decades – stems from racism is itself insulting. The racists have always been among us, and pretty much without exception, they have been families looked down on by others in the community. So when you assume that my mechanic – who votes Republican because he resents regulations that have made his business stumble, and when you assume that my neighbor, who votes Republican because he blames his loss of job and pension on trade agreements, you are lumping them with the low lifes down the road. Which is a particularly acute insult.
It is not insulting to tell such people they have their facts wrong, but when you refuse to hear what they are saying and just attribute some other terrible motive, well, yeah, they are going to be insulted.
If you are doubting the effect of the insults, it is almost impossible to determine the single cause of electoral results, because there are so many million people pulling levers for so many different reasons. In truth, there are myriad reasons. But the comfy explanation of racism does not stand up very well to logic. If rural America now goes red by 30 plus points, why did it only go 15 points red for Obama’s first election? It seems obvious to me that some other important forces are at work, a whole lot of rural voters who were fine with Obama are now pulling the Republican lever.
Yeah, that was my (obviously poorly-worded) point: Rural Americans are far from a monolithic voting block, which is why the smart Dem politicians will not simply ignore them.
Audhumla’s teats, you are a tedious guy sometimes. But because I am on my first Friday beer and have to wait for my wife before starting on my second, I’ll annoy everyone else by answering you.
It was specifically Matt_W. He said (and I won’t even quote because I’m too lazy to scroll even two pages up) something along the lines of “We should write them off and concentrate on young people.”
I guess we could ask Tom or Clay for the metrics on the P&R sub-forum or maybe this thread in particular. I can only estimate – I think Qt3 has a daily readership in the 5K unique reader range, probably most going to the games forum. Say, 750 unique eyes in this sub-forum, and maybe 500 on this thread?
BUT, I have some pretty good non-specific and difficult to articulate evidence that Matt_W is actually Jake Tapper or else Jake Tapper’s brother-in-law, which makes his potential reach in the millions. MILLIONS!
Golly Scott, I really don’t want to put out too many details of my paper until it’s been peer-reviewed, so you’ll have to wait just a liiiiitle bit longer. But if you promise not to tell my Dissertation Board, I’ll spill just a little bit of my conclusions: My evidence shows that ignoring rural voters may cost a candidate in excess of 0.1% of a Wisconsin.
Yes, you have made my point much more succinctly and clearly than I have. This is my point in a nutshell.
My patience for coddling Republican voters ended in 2016.
Fuck them. They get nothing.
That’s where I’m at, too.
Probably bad politics, which is why it’s probably a good thing I’m not a politician.
“Candidate Cameron, what do you have to say to the millions of Trump voters you hope to bring over to your cause?”
“Hey idiots, stop being idiots!”
Timex
4808
There are actually Democrats who live in rural areas.
Yes, and we recognize that we live in abject shitholes and are surrounded by shitty people.
But hey, at least the biscuits are good.
In fact, some people have worked hard to understand the outcome of that election, and the answer seems far more likely to be anti-Clinton media and racial attitudes than resentment over liberal insults.
Sorry about that. I was terse because my questions for you were the same as for @FinnegansFather. If your answer is that you’re talking about people in this forum, fair enough, but the comments here will have zero impact on the election.
Very well, I await publication with bated breath.
Yes, I know that. And I disagree (obviously). Particularly over focusing on racism, because the elections results so clearly show that rural counties supported Obama much more than they supported Clinton.
Although in truth it does not have to be just one thing rather than another. My guess is that, if we could have eliminated any one of those three, we would have won the election.
But looking into the future, my guess is that #2 is largely beyond our control, and #1 will likely be replicated by GOP operatives. So I advocate for some attention to #3. Especially since empty rage about #2 seems to lead to the wildly inaccurate hyperbole that undoes #3.
And it is such common sense. 1) Don’t accuse people of things on the basis of what people who look like them do, and 2) Don’t pointlessly alienate people whose votes you want, just to vent at a very frustrating situation.
But I really do understand the frustration, not least because the other side’s insults do not harm them as much as ours do. Obviously, it isn’t fair.
Ok, but if you’re going to ignore the analysis and go with your gut, I hope at least you can understand why I was confused by the argument.
This was quite a good comment. I read through it once, noted that I needed to read through it again with greater concentration, came back to do that and saw it was gone.
I think that’s a false dichotomy. I am looking at the data and coming to my own conclusion. Which is not at all the same as just going with my gut.
If Obama had polled worse in rural areas than Clinton, I would be far more open to your preferred analysis.
Nesrie
4816
A vote for Obama doesn’t automatically mean someone isn’t racist anymore than having that one black friend doesn’t make someone not racist either.
Agree 100%.
But as I see it, if such a preponderance of rural counties voted more for Obama than for for Clinton, it is really a tough sell to claim that the '16 electoral results prove racism was the primary factor.
I would never claim racism has disappeared, here or in the suburbs or in metropolitan areas. But I also think that sometimes liberals go from carrying anti-racism as an excellent political torch… into a self delusion that racism explains everything, every vote that they do not like. It feels better, because that way you know your opponent is just pure evil, and it avoids facing up to our own poor political tactics… which, in turn, makes it tougher to regain control of government and actually do something about racism and climate disaster and income disparity.
It’s not that someone specifically votes Republican because they are racist. It’s just that it’s not possible to vote for a Republican candidate without being a racist, in addition to whatever other shitty tendencies and preferences you might have.
Just curious, is this what you’re looking at? Or something like it?
Nesrie
4822
You know what makes someone racist, when they say and do racists stuff… period. It doesn’t matter if they voted for Obama. It doesn’t matter if they’re a Republican or Democrat. When they start talking about white culture, or western culture, when they talk about urban blacks like that’s the only group of black people, when they refer to slavery as some sort of mythical ancient history… it’s not a political torch. Republicans cater to actual racists, and it was and is a real life playbook strategy for one party. It’s not a question of if… it was a Southern strategy and has been a strategy ever since. The Republican party doesn’t get to document a means to capture the racist southern vote and then turn around and say hey it’s a “political torch” when you point that out. This is not all happenstance and these attitudes are not accidental.
And there were absolutely some individuals who kind of treated Obama as some sort of get out of racist label free card and then got super pissed when they were still called a racist… for doing and saying racist things.
You know what feels better… being treated like an equal, not having political races out there referencing entire cities they’d like to keep white, not having drug wars by design targeting minorities, not having roads designed to keep minorities in their place, not having people run around this country championing an official language we don’t actually have… so no, it’s not about feels; it’s bout basic human rights to exist in this country and the never ending tiring need to keep fighting for those. To try and boil that down to some sort of feeling is just a fundamental misunderstanding about what is a political tactic and what is the every day existence for some people.
So yes, Democrats, call racists racist. We did it the quiet way. It didn’t work. Tell it like it is. I hear Republicans like that kind of policy anyway. Any Democrat too cowardly to say racist or racism, doesn’t deserve a vote.
No, Scott, I have read the basic facts a few places. The one I remember best was answering a different question, not where did the biggest flips come from, but how large a swing did most rural counties experience. I’ll try to find one later.
I had seen that map, but found it really tough to make sense of. For one thing, I don’t know what most of those counties are, just looking at them. Also, when you look at outliers, you are often looking at a place with its unique local stuff that makes for poor generalizations.
