Maybe a better way to brand this would be as an overhaul of post-secondary education in the US, with a program designed to provide funding for anyone working towards a post-secondary certificate or degree program (and perhaps make it means-tested funding, though I think part of the point is that you can be pretty well-off in the grand scheme and still be crippled by college debt due to the insane cost, so the means-testing might not kick in until you’re well into the top 1% of income). Could be accompanied by a series of Green New Deal-related certificate programs that workers of any age can take and then get placed into new, high-tech manufacturing or maintenance jobs.
One of the biggest problems with the “some people just don’t need college” line of thought is similar to the “why should athletes need good grades?” angle. The simplest answer is that we are all better off if we are all better educated, and secondary school or GEDs don’t go far enough. A vocational school that teaches you to be a plumber is great - maybe you don’t need to learn calculus or latin for that, but you would still be better off taking 2-3 courses on literature or history, 2-3 courses on physics, math, or statistics, and a course or two on the basics of psychology, economics, international relations, and the scientific method. Those things make you a better neighbor, a better employee, a better parent, and a better citizen. Of course, it isn’t enough to make it tuition free - many people would still be unable to attend, but it’s better than making it also cost a ton of money.
Nesrie
5813
Here’s the thing though… some individuals are not very good with learning in the systems we provide them. Maybe they can’t pass a literature class or ever really full grasp the intricate nature of economic systems. This doesn’t mean they’re dumb though, and it could be just a lack of attention or maybe the way we convey that information isn’t great for their learning style. They could, however, do great in these other programs. I would love to give them an opportunity to get that other information too but why penalize and scrub someone out, keeping in mind our fail rates are not good for college, when they can be successful elsewhere… and we still need plumbers, electricians, carpentry… etc.
But, that sounds like a problem with how the class is taught, not the subject material.
And let’s face it, a lot of our colleges and universities don’t really put a lot of effort into teaching methods. Not like you see in elementary, middle and high schools.
Everyone needs some sort of schooling our our government functions, some sort of schooling in basic economics, and some experience with our history. Those are job focused concerns, those are life focused ones.
Oh, and some sort of education into how odds and chance work.
Oh, I agree with all that, but that’s actually something that would be solved by a system that prioritized giving everyone a rounded education over giving everyone a large bill. Make it cheaper, get more people into the system, and incentivize the schools to actually teach, not just scrub out anyone who doesn’t fit their box. We’ve got a lot of work to do in primary and secondary school too, but leaving tertiary schooling out of it is a mistake.
Nesrie
5816
In that case, I agree. I think our school systems should do more than make good little workers, they should help produce an educated and critical thinking populace. I just… don’t see how we can do that right now, so I am all in favor of of having these technical, trade… alternate routes so we can give someone a different chance to be productive and happy and fulfilled.
I don’t think you appreciate how much some people hate school and academics. ~Half the population has IQ below 100 by definition what you’ve described is sheer torture for many of them. Another chance to be bored, and frustrated, and off course remained how dumb they are and suffer panic attacks worrying about test taking. What you say sounds nice in theory, but I’ve never seen any data that actually produce the results you say. Being smart is huge advantage in today’s world and it is nicely correlated with those things you mentioned, but it is even more highly correlated with going to and graduating.college. There is not a lot of evidence that person with an IQ of 120 that takes the General Education courses you describe (or High School 2.0 as i call it) is more successful than those who have an IQ of 120 and don’t. I’'d love to see the evidence that putting the “D” high school (who often have an IQ of around 80) through this same torture does any good.
Vocational schools are fine, but what I really want to see in an apprenticeship program like the German have. I’d much rather spend 30-40K putting young people through an apprenticeship program than encouraging them to go to High School 2.0 and paying off their student loans.
General, IQ tests have to be redone ever so often because the averages on them go up. Mostly because diets improved, which improves Intelligence. Also, better teaching methods and early education can have a significant impact on it.
So, as society progresses, more and more people will be able to succeed in College.
And, generally, I don’t worry too much about the people with high IQs. It’s the people with average IQs that can benefit from courses and class work. Your local yokal that can learn about how interest rates and credit cards work, or how the legal system might work. Those things can improve society tremendously.
Average people are only average because society doesn’t put resources into making them above average.
We don’t have to be a stratified society.
Menzo
5819
I think I’ve seen a documentary about this…
Back on topic.
I saw Mayor Pete on Fox News Sunday, it is rare for Chris Wallace to interview a politician and not lay a glove on them. This was in no small part, because Mayor Pete actually answered his questions. The contrast between Pete and Mick Mulvaney couldn’t have been sharper.
https://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/2019/10/21/buttigieg-punching-above-his-weight/
There is noting average about Billy Ray in trading place, or Eddie Murphy for that matter.
Sounds like a great way to entrench a caste system. The point of getting more people to go to college, rather than just giving them job training, is to increase class mobility.
Part of the reason for this is that it’s very difficult to design an IQ test that doesn’t also test for education, and part of it is that, as you say, just dropping your average high school student into a college class is not a great experience for that student. You need to cater to the needs of different levels of achievement, and I agree that a greater focus on concrete skills is a useful way to do that, but siloing those kids into trade schools or apprenticeship programs is a great way to cement them as an underclass.
How are you defining success?
Is it wealth? Is it being a functional and contributing member of society that understands how a society functions and what the purpose of government is?
It is both. Donald Trump is exhibit A on how even having the finest educations doesn’t guarantee an understanding of how our society or government works. I’m all in favor for having a population that better understand how our government works. But it is amply clear, that forcing or even nudging the C and D students into taking a college course on US government isn’t going work for large swaths of the population.
Frankly, I think we are better of making John Oliver’s show free and it would be a lot cheaper.
Timex
5825
Trump has a degree which he purchased. He doesn’t have an education.
CraigM
5826
Purchased implies paid for. And we all know Donnie doesn’t pay his bills.
The point isn’t to teach them facts, but to teach them to learn, process conflicting information, and consider alternate viewpoints. No one understands civics because a single class taught them about the constitution. They understand because they look up what they don’t know and they give a shit about knowing the truth. Not everyone who takes classes will be better for it, but the vast majority will. Telling them they shouldn’t aim so high is wrong. No one is suggesting that we strap down everyone without a Bachelor’s and make them pass Business Ethics before they can have a job.
Timex
5829
Some folks just aren’t up to this. Some folks just don’t care.
If someone wants to go to college though, i don’t see a problem with letting them
A separate issue though, is that we need to stop shaming those that don’t want to do that.
And stop shaming kids who don’t want to go to high school, or 7th grade. School just isn’t for them. They can find a noble profession if only we wouldn’t waste their time books and math and learnin’. The key is that we tell them it’s a good thing and they are doing well.
