5851

Folks are good at different things.

5852

Do we shame people who don’t want to go to college? I don’t think we do. In fact, we have kind of a cultural reverence for blue collar work.

5853

Oh yeah, big time. At least when I was in highschool in the 90’s.

There was a ton of talk about how “if you don’t go to college you’re only going to earn 10% of a college graduate!” or stuff like that. Vocational schools were presented as places where dumb kids went who couldn’t go to college.

The reality is, most of those kids who went to VoTech probably got more gainfully employed than a lot of the kids who went to college. Turns out, learning how to weld steel is a more useful skill than art history or women’s studies.

5854

Yes, our generation was all “get into college or your life is worthless” and that certainly caused a lot of problems. But as you well know, partly in reaction to that there’s now a big segment of the country that discredits any knowledge and education at all. Knowing things makes one an “elite” after all, “real America” is people who are intentionally ignorant. That’s not exactly better, and telling people they can just single-minded focus on one trade makes more of them, with an added bonus that it’ll fuck them over when that single trade gets automated or otherwise pushed out of the economy.

I don’t really know what the solution is, although certainly I think before we make a new tier of free schools maybe we should fix the bad free education we have now.

5855

There are some issues where they want different things and would find compromise difficult, he’s not saying that he will change the world so that no one argues. The problem with the system isn’t healthy debate, it’s the toxic influence of minority views backed by truckloads of money. Changing that means not just banning “soft money”, but reducing its power. In addition to overturning Citizen’s United like Biden wants, he suggests small donor matching (Biden supports “public financing” which could potentially be implemented the same way?), a national popular vote instead of the EC, independent redistricting commissions, statehood for DC and Puerto Rico, and a major reform of the Supreme Court.

A Supreme Court with lower stakes (because there are more Justices who rotate more frequently and because there is more buffer between politics and their selection) is a good first step to removing a major wedge issue. If working across the aisle means helping re-elect someone who will work against your position on Roe v Wade, it’s hard to work across the aisle.

These specific policies might not be able to pass, but the fight for structural change that they represent means he adds something that Biden doesn’t have. I personally think Warren’s approach will be more effective, but Pete at least wants to work on the problem. Biden seems to think the problem is only about Trump and his closest allies.

5856

It’s more useful if your job is welding steel. Tenured professors in art history or women’s studies make more than welders do and have have a hell of a lot more job security.

Also using “art history and women’s studies” to characterize degree seekers is pure propaganda. Most bachelor degrees in the United States are in business and health professions.

5857

There are a lot more job openings for welders than there are for tenured art history professors.

5858

It is very hard to create separate but equal educational systems.

5859

There are a lot more job openings for nurses, accountants and teachers than there are for welders.

5860

I’d think we need more of the later employed, but not necessarily more in total. After all, which group is more likely to help us stop getting Trumps?
I know we can’t get a unicorn and rainbows world, but there’s too many incredibly smart people not having the chance of doing their best to improve the world because it’s not profitable to, which would also be worth addressing.

5861

Sure, but you don’t need to go to college for those things either.
Except for teachers, I guess… although they’re gonna earn a good deal less money than the welder.

As I said, I think that if folks want to get a college education, they should be enabled in doing so. But we should also not look down on the kids who just aren’t that into academics.

One of my best friends in college, for instance… the kid was smart, but he just freaking sucked at school. He hated being in school. He hated academics. He eventually graduated with a degree in Mechanical Engineering, but ultimately he just became a machinist. He could have easily done that with a degree from a technical school, which would have cost him a fraction of the tuition, and would have saved him years of time.

He was smart, and good at working with his hands. He LIKED just building stuff. But he was pushed into college by a system that said it was the only way to be worth anything.

5862

Conservatives will oppose every one of these things. They like soft money freedom because they’re the party of moneyed interests and have a lot more to give or spend. They like the electoral college because it magnifies the power of their rural, small-state base. They like gerrymandering for similar reasons, it allows them to isolate the political power of their urban opponents. They oppose adding states that will just vote for Democrats anyway. And with a structural advantage in the Senate and the abandonment of norms, they can more or less control the makeup of the Court and won’t do anything to give that advantage up.

There is literally nothing in that list where he will find common cause with conservatives. He’s different from Biden only in that his fantasy about working with Republicans is a different fantasy.

5863

Yes…

… and yes.

This made me laugh out loud (probably due to the overwhelming truth to it)

5864

Isn’t he the guy who said no matter who got nominated the Republicans are going to call them socialists?
Seems to me he’s been very rational about his views on most things. His biggest problem is being a gay white dude, which doesn’t earn him much sway with most black voters.

5865

Absolutely. I’ve had a few minor construction works done this year, and those people worked pretty damn hard in fairly hot days and did a good job that I’ll joy for decades (I think). Even if I could do without the gay bashing conversation that got old decades ago.

5866

One thing I saw in Mayor Pete early in my learning about the candidates was his willingness to thoughtfully talk about structural issues with our system. He’s stated it a number of times, but one example I appreciated was I when I first heard him say the appointment of a new supreme court justice shouldn’t be a constitutional crisis every time it comes up. It lent weight to his thoughtful, intelligent approach.

5867

I think that Pete’s “problem”, is that he often thinks tactically about how to actually implement change. This gives the impression to some that he’s somehow less progressive, because he presents fairly calm, well thought through ideas, and that may sound boring.

But when you look at his platform, it’s difficult for me to imagine someone presenting a well reasoned argument for him not being progressive enough.

5868

Welders, solderers, cutters and brazers make about $41k per year on average and there are about 420,000 jobs for them in the U.S., with slow growth in the field.

Post-secondary instructors make about $78k per year on average and there are about 1,350,000 jobs for them in the U.S., with high growth in the field.

I think machining or welding or any trades are good fields to get into. But the conventional wisdom on this is generally correct. You’re more likely to have a higher salary and better job prospects if you go to college. Welders do not make more money than professors.

Median pay for elementary teachers is $58k per year. Welders make less than teachers on average.

5869

CPAs are required to have a bachelor’s degree.

Currenly about 60% of RN’s have bachelors degrees. And there has been legislation enacted or pending in several states to require nurses with 2 year degrees to acquire a BSN within a certain time period in order to maintain their license. That field is in transition and it’s likely that a BSN will be required to be licensed as a nurse within a couple of decades.

5870

It wasn’t the general argument I found funny but the specific example (art history professors and women’s studies vs welders).

In general I do think it is good for people to go to college because it exposes them to ideas and ways of thinking they may not otherwise get. But I also recognize that it isn’t for everyone. There are also some people who may not think it is for them, but if exposed to the right field and what they can actually do, may become interested and motivated to pursue further education. Basically I think the best we can do is expose kids to as much as possible in high school and educate them on available choices and let them, with the help of parents and other influential adults in their lives choose what is best for them.

Unfortunately even as a chemistry professor my wife makes less than that after teaching for 13 years. Out of grad school she started as a research chemist at a pharmaceutical company making almost 2x what she makes now. Many small colleges and universities pay like crap - but it is the environment she enjoys.