1971

Black man smokes weed on a hammock in his back yard, is arrested, convicted on a three strikes rule

Can’t vote.

Seems legit.

I think you could make that argument if the judicial system wasn’t as racially biased as it is. When you have a massive amount of minority voters unable to vote, that, to me sounds unconstitutional.

Especially when prison populations are being counted in the census to create voting blocs.

We get Prison Gerrymandering

1972

Lacking strong opinions one way or the other, I’m open to a discussion of whether currently incarcerated felons ought to be allowed to vote, but it’s a long way from some kind of litmus test for me. If one believes in the systematically racialized application of the justice system, then it might follow that incarcerating disproportionate numbers of African Americans could indeed constitute a violation of their voting rights. So that might be a path to ‘let them vote.’ A more general view, that voting rights are so fundamental that even conviction of a felony should not be sufficient to strip them away, can certainly be argued, but it doesn’t seem self-evident to me at this point.

1973

You are conflating different issues here.

The guy shouldn’t be arrested… But this doesn’t change the fact that incarceration is intrinsically a severe restriction of your rights. You can’t say, “we can’t restrict the rights of the incarcerated” because it’s an inherently nonsensical position.

Reformation of the Justice system is one thing… But your position suggesting that it’s wrong to restrict the rights of prisoners makes absolutely no sense.

1974

I don’t know where I said that prisoners should have all their rights, but I think the right to participate in voting, which they are counted for in the census, and directly effects their well being, seems pretty fair to me.

I guess you could make the argument that those in prison for voter fraud might lose their rights to vote, but we get to choose which rights to take away from convicts, and I think that voting shouldn’t be one of them.

1975

A lot of conservatives are in favor of the position, or something close to it.

1976

Yeah, it isn’t Sanders-lite, it is moderate-left.

1977

But that was the implication of Sanders’ argument.

He said that criminals should have the right to vote, because it is a basic inalienable right.

But incarceration inherently infringes on rights that are clearly MORE fundamental, like freedom of movement.

Criminal punishment is, when distilled to it’s essence, a restriction on rights for those who commit crimes.

I’m totally in favor of restoring voting rights for criminals after they are released. But the idea that you can’t restrict their voting rights doesn’t have any logical basis. Why can’t you? You can, just like you can restrict their 2nd amendment rights, or their first amendment rights, or their right to control their own person. That’s what prison is. That’s why it’s bad.

1978

Ah, so you are just being pedantic.

1979

To be the devil’s advocate (I don’t really have a position at this point), there are no lack of bad criminal laws or people unjustly convicted, regardless of the achievements of modern society. And even if justice was served, it smells a bit like petty revenge, as the small limitation seems more likely to keep them engaged with society than to have any real effect.
Obviously, that’s debatable, and I’m not informed enough to debate the ethical and moral implications. In practical terms, I can see how the process to ensure a proper anonymous and uncoerced vote would be a big logistical problem. So, again, I don’t really have a position.

I had to look up what my country’s law is, since I never thought of looking. It seems that, generally, they can, but we’re not you.

1980

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<3 all around, kids

1981

Yes Mayor Pete position is morally consistent with our justice system, and Bernie’s isn’t. Do you think felons should be allowed to own guns? Convicted Pedophiles to teach school, convicted embezzlers to become CFOs?

1982

Can’t quite get about the Bernie train on this one. I’ll have to echo what others have said and that his position doesn’t really make sense. I’m all for reform of the justice system especially as it relates to drug laws, but saying you can’t take voting away from an incarcerated felon because it’s a right just… well, yeah duh, man. They don’t have a right to leave the prison, see their family when they want, all sorts of things. That’s what being in prison is.

You do a crime, you get convicted of a crime, you lose your rights. When you’ve served your time, I think those rights should be restored, including voting. Saying we can’t take rights away from incarcerated felons because there’s flaws in the justice system just doesn’t hold water for me. The solution in that instance is to put effort into resolving problems within the justice system itself, not that felons can’t lose rights – in this case, voting – because the system has problems.

1983

Some people assume an overly literal argument style as a passive-aggressive way to goad an opponent, some people are just thinking literally, and some have Asperger’s. Try not to be an ass to any of them.

1984

Bernie definitely trying to move the Overton Window on this.

1985

The quality of argumentation here illustrates what’s wrong with Buttigieg’s position.

‘Prisoners should be able to vote!’

‘No, they should not, they lose that right when they are convicted.’

‘Yes, I know they do, and that’s what I’m complaining about. Why should they lose that right?’

‘Because they do. It’s complicated. They lose other rights too.’

‘Some of those actually make sense for prisoners, but why does losing the right to vote make sense for prisoners?’

‘Because they lose that right.’

‘But why?’

‘Because they can’t vote. They lose that right!’

1986

No one made that argument.

1987

I’m fine with the probation/parole period ending for restoration of rights, as long as folks don’t pull crap like what they’re doing in Florida to keep people unable to vote. (aka court fees should not count for this)

1988

And there’s why you can’t have good things. Dismissing well-studied ideas and approaches because “Wasn’t Invented Here” is just absurd.

Edit:
Also, the “Swedes are so culturally homogenous” claim is just right-wing talking point rubbish, which is extremely tiresome at this point. This may have been true in the 70s - it’s not been true for the past few decades. Sweden’s immigrant (foreign-born) citizens nowadays is at ~14%, which is pretty much the same as the US average. It’s funny how “Sweden is very homogenous” is the talking point whenever discussing the achievements of Swedish society, while “Sweden is overrun by Muslims” becomes the talking point every time the talk falls on crime, racial issues, etc. Yet it’s been at this rate for several decades now and Sweden hasn’t collapsed yet - despite claims to the contrary.

1989

Just what I would expect a deep-state Swedo-conspirator crisis actor lizard person to say. I’m into you.

1990

I’m open to arguments that prisoners shouldn’t be allowed to vote, but (like Scott), I haven’t actually heard any so far. There are good and obvious reasons why a person serving a prison sentence can’t have freedom of movement or their second amendment rights. However I don’t see why voting rights get bundled up in that package.

If prisoners voted the US would be rid of prison gerrymandering and it would allow more proportional representation for minority men. What is the offsetting harm that justifies removing voting rights?

In Canada, prisoners have the right to vote. I haven’t noticed any negative impacts from that.