Fallout and ultima7 would be good examples of emphasizing breadth over depth. They allow for freedom, nonlinear gameplay, and exploration. Not that linearity and depth are necessarily bad things, but many times in KOTOR/BG2/etc I find myself watching a scene unfold rather than really interacting with it. You have two superficial choices, good or evil, and you pick one. There are both advantages and disadvantages of deep (vs broad) design; KOTOR/BG2/etc have intricate well-written storylines, and it would be an incredible amount of work to give that same detail to a broader game. I believe this was a deliberate decision by bioware.
You really see this a lot more in KOTOR than BG2, since you’re locked into one role (you ARE darth revan, not a bounty hunter, not a gunslinger, not a wisecracking drunkard, etc) but it’s there in all bioware RPGs. Sure I guess it’s “roleplaying” but it’s playing a set role-- and that’s a hallmark of adventure games.
Well, I would argue that the most important element of an RPG is the role-playing, insofar as it can be done in the computer gaming medium. While you are Darth Revan, you still have a choice in how you’re going to be Darth Revan–flexibility within a pre-defined role (although I agree the degree of flexibility there isn’t too great). In Fallout, you still had to defeat the big boss in order to win the game. You could choose to help or not help in all the towns across the land, but you still had to be the hero in the end, through a single act with only one outcome.
And in my humble opinion, freedom, nonlinearity and exploration are not mutually exclusive facets of an RPG. This could describe the PS2 GTA games, Jak II and III, or even Katamari.
I think CRPGs, in order to compete with their pen and paper brethren, require a level of character flexibility and situational dynamism that just can’t be done very easily. The situation is such a strange thicket that we could probably go back and forth on this ad nauseum.
I prefer BioWare RPGs because I just don’t think computer/video games do non-linear well. It’s too hard, for me, to suspend disbelief when faced with a Morrowind or MMORPG. It’s too easy, for me, to see the man behind the curtain and lose interest. So when I sit in front of a videogame RPG I prefer a certain level of story that a non-linear game can’t provide because, frankly, the technology just can’t match a DM & players situation.
For those that have played the game: does Jade Empire have a better beginning than the original KotOR?
The first few hours of KotOR, I thought, were a textbook example on how not to start a videogame. It was dull, tedious, and failed to showcase what make that game unique.
Scott, most review copies are embargoed, so your question might have to go unanswered for a few more days. But I’m curious about your complaint. Can you give an example of an RPG that avoided this problem?
Since games these days are built for people with short attention spans – “you should be having “fun” in less than ten minutes!”, whatever the hell that’s supposed to mean – most RPGs have to gradually layer in their game dynamics. I really respect a game that gives you a lot of options from the get-go, but I can completely understand why most games don’t start this way.
Instead, you have to hold the player’s hand and guide him through a few Dramatic Scripted Events (burning villages!), Plot Points (secret destinies!), and Exciting Character Intros a la the Typical JRPG (imposing villains and mysterious benefactors!), before actually turning him loose in the game world.
You forgot to add that the main character must begin the game asleep in his bed only to be awakened by his mother or other female family member calling his name… If I never see this opening to another game as long as I live it’ll be too soon. That’s why I loved Vandal Hearts so much… they made you think they were going for that but instead you got giant blood geysers!
Now that’s interesting. I bought the game on a friend’s strong recommendation, found the first couple hours dull and tedious, and deleted it. I figured there was a problem with me, since nobody anywhere had anything bad to say about the game, other than that “It sets an impossible standard for all future games” and other BS.
KotOR and KotOR 2 both suffer from slow beginnings and a refusal to give you your damn lightsaber in a timely fashion. KotOR 2 is the greater offender here, but they both drag it out a bit too much. That’s really the only complaint I have about KotOR 1, although 2 is another story.
Come to think of it, Jedi Outcast did that, too. Multiple levels of generic FPSing before you finally got your damn saber. When I buy a game in which I play a Jedi, I want to start as a frigging Jedi.
I absolutely see what stusser is saying in regards to Bioware’s games, but I just don’t hold CRPGs to that standard. They’re never going to offer the flexibility of their pen and paper ancestors, although I’ll be pleasantly surprised if someone figures out a way to do it one day. Generally all an RPG has to do these days is tell me a great story (KotOR, Fallout), or serve up a fantastic and absorbing battle system (SMT:Nocturne, Shadow Hearts). The real gems are the rare few that offer both (Panzer Dragoon Saga).
I have high hopes for Bioware’s first foray into action-based combat. If they can pull it off and still tell a story as good as KotOR’s, I’ll be happy.
Now that’s interesting. I bought the game on a friend’s strong recommendation, found the first couple hours dull and tedious, and deleted it. I figured there was a problem with me, since nobody anywhere had anything bad to say about the game, other than that “It sets an impossible standard for all future games” and other BS.[/quote]
Really, aside from the plot and polished graphics I fail to see what kind of a standard that game set.
Limit to 3 people per party? Check.
Ranged feats useless for your main character after you get a lightsaber? Check.
Can’t control 3 people simultaneously without pausing? Check.
No top down view mode? Check.
I could go on, but why? :)
And yeah, the beginning was boring, they should’ve given you a lightsaber from the start and not pretended you weren’t a Jedi.
The plot on the other hand was very good (if you were into Star Wars); unlike other games it actually mentioned the EU quite a bit.
Why shouldn’t you have fun with a game in ten minutes? Or at least see the promise of fun? I don’t think that having an engaging opening sequence is a matter of catering to an “ADD” generation, but a simple matter of appropriate design.
Here’s a few things wrong with KotoR’s opening sequence:
Oh no! Your ship is under attack by the Sith! What do you need to do first? Inventory management! While important and critical for RPG survival, inventory management is an exceptionally dull way to start a game. Why not teach players about inventory management after combat? Players would be much more interested (and retain more information) if they were to learn how they could benefit from winning fights.
Jedi characters are really cool in KotoR; too bad you have to wait 3+ hours before you ever see any of them in action. It would have been better if they had a Jedi in the opening scene in some way show why they were cool and demonstrate all the interesting powers you could get later in the game. Final Fantasy Tactics actually did this quite well; the first battle actually occurs in the middle of the story and you fight with (and against) a number of powerful characters. You see some spells being cast, some of the interesting character classes, and after the level is complete, you actually start the game with your entry level characters. The game has succeeded in getting your interest and showing what is possible, now you have a goal to strive for when you play.
I’m in no way supporting this garbage. Don’t get me started on amnesia, the single most overused plot element in RPGs. (Though Planescape: Torment is the only game I can think of that used the mechanism intelligently.)
Why shouldn’t you have fun with a game in ten minutes? Or at least see the promise of fun?
You misunderstood me. People should always and everywhere have fun.
My comment was meant as part of my lifelong crusade to get people to quit using the word ‘fun’ as if it conveyed anything meaningful. Once I’ve accomplished that, then will I take on the whole 7-9 ratings scale.
I’m in no way supporting this garbage.
BTW, I’m not saying Jade Empire does this. I’m speaking in general.
Don’t get me started on amnesia, the single most overused plot element in RPGs.
How do you feel about shipwrecks? Are those okay? :)
It’s weird, because I liked KOTOR2 better because it didn’t give you a lightsaber as a party favor. And its introductory area was about a million times more interesting than Taris.
It’s weird, because I liked KOTOR2 better because it didn’t give you a lightsaber as a party favor. And its introductory area was about a million times more interesting than Taris.[/quote]
Yeah, I absolutely agree on both points. Although not getting your lightsaber immediately in the first one felt a little lame, because it was like there was this drawn out period of not being a Jedi that didn’t seem to have much of a point. In KOTOR2 though, there was ample reason to not have the lightsaber right off, and it was a meaningful mission to get one, and when you finally did it was awesome.
Regardless of when you got the lightsaber, I think you should be able to turn people into freakin’ limb salad with it. Sure, you can still toss it like a boomerang, and deflect and reflect laser fire, but it’s a freakin’ blade made of plasma or whatever. You wouldn’t have to raise the ESRB rating–just give me a cheat code or something.
Keil, the lightsabers were part of the character and story progression. Go complain about Raven’s Jedi Knight game.
Like it or not, Star Wars is a kiddie IP these days. I think with the exception of an occasional hand getting bloodlessly lopped off, lightsabers might as well be wooden katanas.
There was a great fake movie floating around a while ago in which a kid opens a Christmas present and is delighted to find a lightsaber. He swings it around a few times and inadvertanly slices his grandmother into bloody chunks. Funny stuff, but not Star Wars.
But there are well known cheat codes for dismemberment in the latest Jedi Knight games.
I did. And that’s a far worse transgression than anything in either KotOR game, because Jedi Outcast is stone dead boring until the saber. And then they have the nerve to throw you into a sniper level immediately after they finally hand over the goods.
KotOR’s story should have progressed faster. I can’t count the number of times I’ve heard people say “I tried to play it, but I gave up after a few hours because I was bored.” I didn’t mind the Taris thing so much because I was interested to see where it was going, but it clearly turns a lot of people off.
KotOR 2’s delay is even longer, and I find it less excusable. I think it took about 9-10 hours before I finally got my saber, and that’s just ridiculous. It’s the sequel, we know the score, just cut to the chase and stop teasing me with the saber. If you could have actually killed that Jedi chick and taken your old saber back, I would have switched to Dark Side then and there.
Fatal flaws? Of course not. But it felt real lame running around with a vibroblade for a quarter of the game.
Like it or not, Star Wars is a kiddie IP these days. I think with the exception of an occasional hand getting bloodlessly lopped off, lightsabers might as well be wooden katanas.
I’m waiting for the edition of A New Hope in which Lucas digitally erases the blood from the arm slice in the cantina.
Speaking for myself, having to go out and get a lightsaber was cooler than just having one. It meant more because you’d earned it, or at least had to go through something before you had it.
I don’t mind a run-up to the saber acquisition, but 9-10 hours? Come on. Most of the irritation comes from being forced to run around swinging a sword in the meantime (I found the KotOR2 character to be fairly weak with ranged weaponry unless you tweaked his/her stats to a degree that damaged performance as a Jedi later on), and I can do that in just about any RPG.
If you want somebody who’ll be good with ranged weapons in the early game but won’t suck it up as a Jedi later, concentrate on Dexterity. Then, later on, you can take Weapon Finesse: Lightsaber to get your Dex bonus to hit.
You could also dump a crapload of feats into Precise Shot if you wanted, which actually isn’t that bad an idea against Jedi opponents, since mastered Precise Shot bones their deflection roll.
If your Strength is low, no big deal; there are plenty of Strength-boosting items and crystals throughout the game, you can pursue lightsaber specialization as a Jedi Weapon Master/Sith Assassin, and there’s always Light/Dark Mastery. Besides, the sheer damage factor on a lightsaber makes that +2-4 from Strength fairly negligible.
Sheesh, as I mentioned before, and as Thomas so patiently explained, the lightsabers in KOTOR are part of the character development. To their credit, Bioware and Obsidian managed to build into their games character development beyond simple stat crunching. Apparently that was lost on you.
But I guess some people just want to jump around and play Star Wars kid…
