Judas gospels

Which, of course, does not alter the fact that there is no debate. I mean, technically there’s a “debate” about whether or not aliens have been abducting Americans and taking them to Area 51 or whatever, but…yeah. I read your original post and was worried it would pass without comment. Thank God for Tom Chick.

Not even the people running the Christianity show think the apostles wrote the Gospels. I was taught in two separate Catholic schools by an ordained priest and a Christian Brother (most of this is from memory, and these classes were a decade ago, so don’t take it as, y’know, Gospel) that all four Gospels are written accounts of oral traditions handed down by various sects of Christianity who had essentially chosen “patron apostles” as their figureheads. Mark was the earliest, and most likely to contain eyewitness accounts from people who knew Jesus (or at least people who knew people who knew him). Matthew is the product of a sect dedicated to attracting Jewish converts. Luke was from a Gentile-snagging tradition. Luke and Matthew both use Mark as a source. John was far later than the other three and may be totally unrelated to them. Even a cursory readthrough can show this, as John doesn’t repeat many of the same stories and has very different themes and a writing style distinct from the others.

So yeah, the people who decide the canon and claim to have the partyline to the Big Guy personally told me that nobody who knew Jesus wrote anything down at all. The people who disagree are probably the same people who insist that Moses wrote the Pentateuch, including the part where he dies. Now, granted, it took the Catholic Church centuries to admit the earth revolves around the sun, but when it comes to this issue, I’d think the Vatican would be all over that shit if new evidence popped up that Mark actually wrote his Gospel.

Firstly, apologies of this sounds patronizing, but I feel strongly about it.

Regardless of my qualifications, I think it’s important to consider whether you’re approaching this from a position of faith, Phil. If you are, which I suspect is the case, I think the conversation should take a very different tack.

The Gospels – and the entire Bible, in fact – are not wrong, inaccurate, or in any way less special because of how they were written or by whom. There is an important Truth in there that shouldn’t hinge on any mere literal truth. They’re far too beautiful and amazing for that.

With regard to the Gospels, something happened a few thousand years ago that should have meant the end of what Jesus was trying to accomplish. But for whatever reason, it didn’t. A misunderstood rabbi and a small handful of his followers were martyred and persecuted, but they still changed the world for the better. If that’s not the Good News, that God somehow transcended death and defeat, that He actually reached into history, than I don’t know what is. Proceed from there. Not from whether Mark actually wrote Mark.

Because to establish that Mark actually wrote Mark, you’re going to have to have a make a great sacrifice: your intellect. And that’s something no religion should demand of someone like you.

-Tom

First, you may not be trying to bait anyone with your terminology, but it certainly comes across that way. Anyways…

Second, the article you link to does not seem tone neutral to me. To give one quick example: His section on Luke opens:

“Luke” was motivated to write the gospel and its sequel, the book of Acts, because he felt that previous gospels written by eyewitnesses to Jesus’ ministry lacked accuracy.

Wow - it’s a double whammy - implying that this revisinionist account goes against the more reliable “eyewitness gospels”. I can only assume the author is basing this on the preface to Luke. In fact, that preface reads:

1Many have undertaken to draw up an account of the things that have been fulfilled[a] among us, 2just as they were handed down to us by those who from the first were eyewitnesses and servants of the word. 3Therefore, since I myself have carefully investigated everything from the beginning, it seemed good also to me to write an orderly account for you, most excellent Theophilus, [NIV]

No mention of inaccuracy in previous eyewitness gospels. In fact, no actual mention of previous gospels, only “accounts”.

A few sentences later, in the rather sparse overall analysis of Luke, he recounts a single theologian’s speculation that Luke was a woman, on the thinnest of thin logic. Rather sensational, frankly, and leads me to be skeptical of the rest of his article.

Getting to the heart of the matter - gospel authorship:

Re: Matthew

Conservative Christians generally assert that the gospel was written by the disciple Matthew, perhaps 45 CE or earlier. The Scofield Bible states that the traditionally accepted date is 37 CE, only 4 to 7 years after Jesus’ execution. 11,12,13,16
bullet Liberals believe that the name of the author is unknown. It was written after the destruction of Jerusalem and its temple in 70 CE, because it describes the event in Matthew 24. Various authorities date Matthew about 85 CE. 6,7,10,19

Re: Mark

Many Christian writers of the 2nd century CE identified the author as the John-Marcus who was mentioned in Acts 12:12. Mark was a helper who went with Paul and Barnabas on Paul’s first missionary journey. Liberal theologians generally believe that the identity of the author is unknown. 6,7,10,19 Conservatives follow the church tradition that the author was Mark.

Re: Luke

Most conservative Christians believe that Luke was a doctor who accompanied Paul on his missionary journeys. 11,12,13,16 Most liberal Christians believe that Luke was an educated person whose identity is unknown. 6,7,10,19

Re: John

Conservative Christians typically believe that the entire gospel, including the addition, was made by John, the disciple. 11,12,13,16
bullet Liberal Christians typically believe that it was written by a group of authors, and that Chapter 21 was added by a later editor of the gospel. 6,7,10,19

So, summarized, the article author states:
Conservatives - Matthew, Mark, Luke and John all by the traditional authors
Liberals - Matthew, Mark, Luke - all unknown. John, by committee.

Unknown does not equal “Not Matthew Mark or Luke”, it equals unknown. And I see nothing in the article to indicate that there is no debate on the subject - rather quite the contrary. And again, this is your link, and an article whose author, IMO, does not strike me as tone neutral to begin with.

TomChick++;

The similarity of the synoptic gospels is not in dispute, and a discussion of THAT is yet another long thread derail that I don’t want to get into.

As for gospel authorship:
I can’t directly comment on what your teachers taught you a decade ago. But a quick google hits the Catholic Encyclopedia, which, AFAIK, expresses the ‘official’ opinion of the Catholic Church. It has fairly lengthy articles on each gospel, including authorship, outlining aspects of the debate, such as it is. Here’s the links, and conclusions from the linked articles (quick summary - they strongly support traditional authorships of Mark and Luke, somewhat less strongly the traditional authorship of John, and with less clarity, and a probably more convuluted origin, for Matthew):

Matthew

According to the majority of present critics–H. Holtzmann, Wendt, Jülicher, Wernle, von Soden, Wellhausen, Harnack, B. Weiss, Nicolardot, W. Allen, Montefiore, Plummer, and Stanton–the author of the First Gospel used two documents: the Gospel of Mark in its present or in an earlier form, and a collection of discourses or sayings, which is designated by the letter Q. The repetitions occurring in Matthew (v, 29, 30 = xviii, 8, 9; v, 32 xix, 9; x, 22a = xxiv, 9b; xii, 39b = xvi, 4a, etc.) may be explained by the fact that two sources furnished the writer with material for his Gospel. Furthermore, Matthew used documents of his own.

Mark

All early tradition connects the Second Gospel with two names, those of St. Mark and St. Peter, Mark being held to have written what Peter had preached. [snip] This internal evidence, if it does not actually prove the traditional view regarding the Petrine origin of the Second Gospel, is altogether consistent with it and tends strongly to confirm it.

Luke

The internal evidence may be briefly summarized as follows:

* The author of Acts was a companion of Saint Paul, namely, Saint Luke; and
* the author of Acts was the author of the Gospel.

John
No short snippet could adequately summarize the article - I suggest reading it for yourself if interested.

Tom - I don’t think I’ve presented my discussion here from a particular perspective of faith. In fact, I’ve expressed the limitations of my knowledge from my earliest post in this thread. Certainly, I have a set of personal spiritual beliefs (as, presumably do you and others in this discussion), but we can certainly discuss the issues in a non-faith based manner.

But you and others have made authoritative statements here without any particular evidence of your own authority, nor reference to external authorities (save runesword’s link, and the reference to a couple of Catholic teachers, both of which I respond to above), nor for that matter, by actually discussing the specific points as to why some feel that the conventional authorship is valid or not valid.

And again, if you merely stated that some scholars doubt the traditional gospel authorships, and you subscribe to those scholars views, I think that would change the character of the discussion. But to argue that there is no serious scholarly debate on the issue at all is a very strong statement, and one that you should expect to be challenged on. Please prove your case (or even present any evidence) before accusing me of being the one burying my head in the sand.

Fair enough. But first, you should realize that Googling stuff isn’t going to present you with a very reliable overview of something as loaded as who wrote the Gospels. For instance, surely you realize that any Catholic Encyclopedia is going to have to delicately dance around the topic, even if Matt Keil’s teachers were more forthright? It’s a tricky issue (and a classic example of why I really don’t care for theology).

You might want to start with a basic overview like the Harper’s Bible Commentary. It’s an excellent and accessible collection of Biblical scholarship, and there’s a great introduction to the Gospels as a whole, as well as introductions to each book and exhaustive textual and historical analysis. It’s a tough, fair, respectable, and impartial collaboration of nearly 100 teachers and academics. It’s what I regularly used in divinity school and what I still refer to from time to time today.

I see that there’s a 2000 edition going for $30 on Amazon. I’m sure you can also find it at your local library if you just want to read over the bits specific to the Gospels.

But just to reiterate what I’ve said before, from an academic perspective, the question has long been settled: the writers of the Gospels are clearly not the Apostles whose names appear on those books. Barring some new evidence, the only significant dissent you’re going to find is from crackpots, religious leaders with an agenda, and the fringe.

-Tom

I’m not sure why defining scholarly as peer-reviewed academic journals is offensive to you. I’m not saying that faithful people writing apologetics are not intelligent or well-informed. I was trying to establish a definition for what I was claiming as “scholarly opinion.”

As far as Luke’s motivations go, which they also contend was more oriented towards gentiles, I’d imagine it comes from different aspects of the text and what Luke chose to emphasize.

I’m not sure where you’re going with this. Luke quotes much of Mark word for word. Are you seriously suggesting that the author of Luke was unfamiliar with Mark?

Why is explaining Luke’s unusual parallel stories, then mentioning that one scholar speculates that Luke was a woman, “sensational?”

I don’t get this. The essay isn’t putting this forward as solid fact. If anything, mentioning that it’s one scholar’s speculation makes it clear that it’s simply an interesting idea.

Yes, unknown means unknown. And given the ancient world’s tendency towards forgery – which even the most orthodox of people concede, given that there are 30+ gospels – there is no particular reason to identify the authors as apostles.

I haven’t seen you or others demonstrate that the weight of the opinion of peer-reviewed journals is against traditional authorship, much less that ALL opinion of peer-reviewed journals is that way.

As far as Luke’s motivations go, which they also contend was more oriented towards gentiles, I’d imagine it comes from different aspects of the text and what Luke chose to emphasize.

I’m not sure where you’re going with this. Luke quotes much of Mark word for word. Are you seriously suggesting that the author of Luke was unfamiliar with Mark?

Why is explaining Luke’s unusual parallel stories, then mentioning that one scholar speculates that Luke was a woman, “sensational?”

I don’t get this. The essay isn’t putting this forward as solid fact. If anything, mentioning that it’s one scholar’s speculation makes it clear that it’s simply an interesting idea.

The point of all of this is that it strikes me that the author of this article is not neutral. He mis-summarizes the introduction of Luke in a key way. In no way does the opening of Luke claim that previous gospels lacked accuracy. That’s either a fairly big error, or a sign of bias. Similarly, that within a rather short piece on Luke, he brings up a rather sensational story with little backing furthers my opinion that this article author is probably not neutral.

Since it seems to me that your point is that all neutral parties share your opinion, I think pointing to signs that the source you’ve presented is not neutral is highly relevant.

Yes, unknown means unknown. And given the ancient world’s tendency towards forgery – which even the most orthodox of people concede, given that there are 30+ gospels – there is no particular reason to identify the authors as apostles.

Well, again, your source, which you picked, and which, to me seems not-neutral, presents two summaries re: each gospel, one of which matches conventional authorship, and the other says that the authorship is unknown (and your source does not explicitly choose between the sides).

Now, going further, you’re disregarding one half of what your source presents, then, with the other half, you’re taking a BIG step which your source (possibly biased in your favor anyways), doesn’t take himself, suggesting that ‘unknown’ = likely forged. Forgive me if I have a hard time following and accepting this convoluted proof for your contention “None of the gospels are thought to be written by their namesakes.”, or for Tom’s more radical contention that "you won’t find anyone [conventional academics] seriously suggesting that any of the Gospels were written by their respective Apostles. "

I’m not sure what you mean by a “neutral” source. Are you accusing the authors of being anti-religious, anti-Christian or simply anti-attributing the Gospels to their namesakes?

Troy

Troy - there are plenty of authors out there who strongly attack aspects of ‘conventional Christianity’. To the extent that they do so grounded in scholarly evidence or at least sound reasoning, then it’s a valid subject for debate. But when their writing is inflammatory and/or distorts facts, then you must approach it with the same kind of skepticism as you would an apologist who distorts the facts in favor of orthodox Christianity.

Am I utterly convinced that the author in question is heavily biased? No, but the little section on Luke certainly seemed suspicious to me, for the reasons I outlined.

So I stopped off at the local bookstore yesterday to follow up on Tom’s suggestion.

They didn’t have the Harper’s commentary, but they did have the Oxford commentary, which, I’m guessing is comparable. Very lengthy single volume commentary, apparently all written by academics, with plenty of academic cites and such.

(I didn’t end up buying it, so I don’t have it at hand as I write this, and I apologize in advance if my summary below mangles anything)

Summary:
There was a lengthy article on the New Testament in general, tying in it’s writing, adoption/formation with the history and issues of the 1st century church. Pretty interesting read, though it only dealt with issues of authorship somewhat tangentially.

There were also individual articles on each of the four gospels, including some bits on authorship and dating. BTW, both the overall summary and the individual gospel author articles, were, I believe, mostly/all written by different academics - so there were somewhat different viewpoints and tones throughout.

As for what they said about the authorships: It was not as Tom described - universal rejection of traditional authorships. In fact, things were rather a mixed bag. Most/all of the articles laid out several possible theories for the development of their respective gospel, each theory advocated to greater or lesser degree by specific academics and/or the academic community as a whole. In each case, the author had a favored theory, but IIRC all the authors were rather hesitant to stamp their theory as ‘gospel’ (yeah, yeah, the puns been made too many times in this thread already).

In each case, the ‘traditional’ authorship was one of the theories. IIRC, only the Mark article came out relatively strongly against ‘tradition’. For Matthew, IIRC, the author’s personal opinion was that while it’s unlikely that Matthew wrote the final form of the gospel, that it was possible/likely that Matthew wrote more of a ‘sayings’ gospel, which a later editor combined with narrative bits from Mark into the final form of Matthew as we have today.

The Luke article author said that the older theory that Luke had to have been written by a doctor wasn’t correct, and mentioned that the Luke/Acts author was not in complete agreement with Paul’s epistles on certain chronology and theology, but also stated that this might simply reflect different viewpoints between Luke and Paul (i.e. just because they were companions doesn’t mean Luke saw everything exactly the same way Paul did). Overall, IIRC, the Luke article author neither particularly affirmed nor disagreed with the traditional authorship

The John article author believed that John was not written all at one time, but probably a sort of first draft, edited/revised one or more later times, written by somebody in the Johanine community - either John himself or a disciple of John recording/recounting John’s version of things.

Again, my summaries are, IIRC, the article favored theories, but all articles recounted multiple theories. Hopefully I’ve captured these theories, as written by the article authors, correctly, but there were a lot of dense theories, and I was reading this yesterday and not taking notes, so I may have mangled something(s) above. In general, most of these authors seemed rather reluctant to say anything definite - there’s not a lot of direct evidence on these issues - there’s a lot of reliance on inferences, and it’s rather possible to read the same thing and draw rather different inferences from it.

Finally, I would return to my original statement - if you’re interested, do your own research from multiple sources, and draw your own conclusions.

And in particular, I don’t think, for the most part, this is a topic where you have to take anybody’s word for it. Most of the arguments and theories are rather accessible to the lay reader, with the exception of those dealing with nuances of Greek grammar and such (and even there, there’s disagreement amongst various authors and scholars).

I’ve found this discussion interesting. I dug out our New American Catholic Study Bible, which has a lot of reading guide stuff in the front. This Bible didn’t really offer an opinion on who wrote the Gospels. Interestingly it refered to both generic “gospel writers” and occasionally used references like “Mark says” or “Matthew says.” I suppose you could interpret that however you want. I never really thought about this question much, but I have a vague sense that we were told (in grade school) that the apostles wrote the gospels. They also taught us that the punishment for masterbation was hariy palms, so go figure. :)

Good thing he wasnt catholic!

Yes, on a variety of issues, that’s the norm. However, as you found, that’s not the case on “traditional authorship”. And it’s no surprise that the people who write about Biblical scholarship are, well, academics. That’s kind of how that works. :)

At any rate, Oxford is going to be a bit dense for anyone who’s not in academia, but it’ll do. Harper’s is much more layman-oriented.

Yes, it’s one of the “theories”. The earth being flat is also a “theory”, as are Elvis faking his death and UFOs building the pyramids.

My point all along is that there’s no credible evidence to support that any of the Gospels were written by their namesakes. Don’t you think it’s telling that none of the writers in your Oxford commentary supported traditional authorship? The timeline, the content, and the historical context simply don’t support that any of the Apostles wrote any of the books of the Gospels. You’re beating your head against a very simple tenet of Biblical scholarship.

-Tom

By the way, Phil, traditional authorship requires that you explain how a bunch of uneducated Aramaic-speaking fishermen knew Greek. Because the Gospels weren’t written in Aramaic. :)

That’s the sort of common sense stuff I was hoping you’d discover if you decided to look into the issue.

-Tom

By the way, Phil, traditional authorship requires that you explain how a bunch of uneducated Aramaic-speaking fishermen knew Greek. Because the Gospels weren’t written in Aramaic. :)

It worked for the Mormons, didn’t it?

/ducks

Tom, either you’re twisting what I said, or I didn’t say it clearly enough.

The traditional authorships were implied as plausible theories, not ‘flat earth’ theories. Different scholars in the Oxford commentary had different opinions on the likelihood of different theories, including traditional authorship. But none of the theories were flat earth, non-credible theories.

And again, from all that I’ve read (including the Oxford commentaries), I just don’t get anywhere close to your position on there being no evidence for traditional authorship, and significant evidence against it. Rather the contrary - there’s a bit of circumstantial evidence on each side, and it’s all a bit weak. Which isn’t terribly surprising for 2000 year old books of which we don’t have the original copies, etc.

Tom, have you even read these commentaries yourself? Greek culture, and language, was widespread in the Eastern Mediterranean in the first century. While the primary language of the apostles was Aramaic, there’s no reason why some wouldn’t have known Greek, or learned it in the course of their evangelism (Indeed, John 12:20-22 discusses Greeks asking the apostle Philip to see Jesus - it’s a fair bet that the dialogue occurred in Greek, not Aramaic). Only two of the gospels are credited directly to Apostles. Matthew may have originally written his gospel in Aramaic (there’s a 2nd century reference to it being in Aramaic, IIRC), and then it was translated by him, or more likely someone else (in fact, I mentioned this as one of the scholarly theories a few posts up).

John wrote his the latest, 40+ years after the crucifiction. You consider it impossible that John:

  1. Knew some Greek to begin with, or
  2. Learned Greek in the intervening 40 years, when, you know, he was traveling around the mediterranean evangelizing to Greek congregations or
  3. His gospel was recorded by a Greek-speaking disciple of his

Really Tom, who’s sticking their head in the sand now?

I’m not saying there’s evidence for the above, but there’s not evidence against it either, and it’s plausible enough, even though, again, there’s no strong proof one way or the other (as to whether, say, John spoke/wrote Greek late in life).

Phil, the issue of the Gospels being written in Greek by people who spoke Aramaic was just one point. There are others. And you’re going to have to do similar academic gymnastics to get around them. Such as explaining how the Apostles managed to live so long, how they anticipated things they couldn’t possibly have known, and how they each managed to write as if they were, in fact, several different people. And then there’s the Synoptic Problem, which was such a problem we actually capitalized it. Matthew, Mark, and Luke were often copied almost directly from Q, a document we no longer have. Why were the Apostles, dudes who knew Jesus first-hand and wouldn’t need to refer to other sources, working from an earlier document?

These are the issues that I was hoping you’d discover if you looked into the matter yourself instead of taking my word for it. Instead, you’ve coming at me with this nonsense about how traditional authorship hasn’t been disproved, so therefore it’s still on the table.

I don’t have an Oxford Bible Commentary with me, but I’d love for you to cite where it supports traditional authorship, not where it mentions that it’s one of many theories.

Look, I’m not interested in slugging it out with you, particularly since it seems you’re not laying all your cards on the table. This is particularly telling:

That’s simply not how it works, Phil. You don’t get to propose a theory and then place the burden of proof on anyone who disagrees with you. Particularly when there’s already evidence supporting the other side.

-Tom