1621

Tell me that didn’t happen between your two posts @ 922A and 632P! I think it did though, it aligns with the work day, going into work and returning.

Glad to hear we still got that lemonade thing working for us Tim. The journey in learning about myself once I was sober resulted in so many other changes that are “positivity” oriented (I look at it that way), that it really wires us well to take difficulties in stride. Like, well, job loss and career change!

Back on the horse Tim (no, I don’t mean the drug!), I mean, back on the job trail that you were just riding. No doubt you have the ability now to look at this as an opportunity, a challenge and quite possibly a good thing that has happened, rather than a calamity.

1622

OT hang in there! I had a similar experience, out about the same time (a month less and you could say I am still in transition to a new career), very few interviews and a lot of rejection or disinterest.

I don’t know your circumstances (maybe you posted them early on, but feel free to refresh our memories in case we can help). In particular what I found, and heard through networking is that depending on age, you might look at this a little differently. If you are say in your 40s and above, and trying to get back into a similar position that has some serious entry barriers (i.e. in my case, CPA, MST, prior work experience, professional services environment), then what I have heard, a lot, is that it’s not unusual (i.e. plan on this) for a search to take a year or more.

But, if that is what you are after, then indeed keep after it, and be willing to do things outside your comfort zone too. In my case, I did a lot of things that are best practices, but I also fell short on some things. Or maybe better said, I didn’t get around to doing them yet and took matters into my own hands in a new career line where I am self employed.

Again, depending on the type of work you are seeking, I think the following are very important in finding the next position:

  • Networking - During my 30 year work life I never thought of myself as a “good” networker, I was too busy doing work for clients. But the truth is, you already have an established network of friends, family, former colleagues, business contacts, etc. However, it is also probably true that your new position will not come from your established network and instead, from your efforts now at networking. I did (and am still doing) things like networking with fellow professionals (in my case, there are groups of local CPAs who get together in many different meetings throughout the Chicago area for purposes of networking their own businesses and they also welcome those in transition). In fact, you could say my going to their breakfast meetings ended up encouraging me to become self employed, helping small companies with their employee benefit issues. Also, I noted there are many Business Executive networking type meetings if that is a fit for you. I just learned yesterday of another networking group that works to help small businesses develop and share leads. My point is, if you aren’t already doing this, it’s a very good activity for building these skills, building out your network with contacts, and being exposed to thinking about what you are pursuing. Seek out networking groups, it’s not enough to do it on your computer alone by yourself, get out, meet other people face to face, try to help them too. At a minimum you are building your own skills, and taking a more active approach can lead to what you are looking for faster than sitting on the sidelines.

  • Linked In - Though I never ended up using this the way I should (yet!), I did a fair amount of work redoing my profile. It is no doubt true that companies you are interested in, and recruiters, are going to be looking at this. If you don’t already have this set up to best reflect who you are, where you have been, your skills etc., consider spending the time to do so. Find someone else who is doing what You want to be doing and look for a good profile and model yours off it. Also, you can have people you have worked with, or former clients, etc. write a recommendation that then shows in your profile, or they can vouch for the skills you have listed. Post a good looking picture of yourself, you’d be surprised how many on Linked In don’t have their pictures up there, and, those with pictures get more favorable responses than those without. Here, my point is that what I learned in my transition is that Linked In is important and I plan on using it in my new venture too. Over the years I have built up 400 or more contacts in there (some of whom I probably couldn’t tell you who they are, but the majority are all valid contacts who could help me).

People want to help but you have to find a way to let them know you need help (and, no shame in asking for it either!)

  • Two resumes? I’m not sure if you meant you are sending two resumes to the positions you apply for? Is that necessary or could it be weirding folks out? In my case, since I have been at it a long time, I had a two page resume. I thought it was in pretty good shape, but, I also got a fair amount of feedback suggesting that I shorten it to one page. And I did, fairly easily by just listing the places and time worked at positions that were longer than, say 10 years ago. I guess I figured it like, OK, folks aren’t really paying that much attention to my resume to begin with, and are even less likely to wade through a two pager.

  • Muster enthusiasm! I know, that’s easy for me to say and you are not in that place. And, my own path through life (getting sober years ago, becoming an optimist after being a life long pessimist, I will spare you the rest of the details), resulted in me being wired to approach this and life from a positive perspective. And, the situation you are in is not a good, pleasant, comfortable, fun place to be. I understand it must not be easy to be optimistic at this time. Maybe you can use some of the things I learned (mostly in getting sober) and they might help. This is a tough thing you are in. However, not to minimize it, but to simplify it, only one of three things can happen. Things will stay the same, they will get better, or they will get worse. If you establish a simple baseline like that, it may be easier to think about things you can DO to change where you are at. THINKING about it probably won’t be enough to solve the dilemma, ACTION has better results than thinking the same thoughts to a similar outcome.

Enough moralizing about this, but the last thing I’ll throw out are some very important things I learned by getting sober and observing other sober folks who had what I wanted. One - this is going to be OK, it’s not a life threatening situation (generally). Two, seeing other people get through this tough issue (or any other tough life issue), and be OK on the other side, is very empowering. You want to do it yourself, and you see you can because in front of you is living proof that others do (in my case, we add, “and not drink” to the getting through tough stuff). So, challenge yourself to find ways to feel good about who you are and what you are doing. One thing I heard, a lot, in my networking, is, when you get to that interview, one of the top things that you need to show is that you want the job, and it needs to come across very strongly (as in, tell them several times you want it, directly, and why, and how you are qualified, and how you can solve any issues they have). That’s enthusiasm there, and, also, I’m told, it’s very discernible if you don’t have it, and it would be a shame to miss out on a good opportunity for that reason.

Hope my rambling, and support, help!

1623

My current job, which is my best job ever by a long shot, I got while in my 50s. I think you have to emphasize the maturity, the work ethic, and the leadership that comes with your age. Sure, you won’t be with the company 25 years from now. But remember, the hiring manager isn’t really worried about 25 years from now, he/she is worried about the issues and problems that the company has NOW! Remember Reagan’s great line during the debates, when there was so much made about his age, and he addressed it head on by saying, a lot of people have asked about my age, and I want to say that I will not hold my opponents inexperience against him. So don’t ignore your age during your interviews, address it by emphasizing the experience and maturity you will bring to the job that other candidates will not. In my case, I commented, I know I’m likely a bit older than other candidates, so let me just say up front, I plan on working for at least 10 more years, hopefully more if I’m enjoying the job, and I am confident that my extra experience relative to other candidates will allow me to hit the ground running and be effective much quicker; experience is knowing what the mistakes look like, and I’m confident I can also leverage that experience and share it with the rest of the team around me. Make it an advantage. The key is making the hiring manager feel like THIS person is going to make my job easier and better! :)

1624

Firstly sorry to hear you find yourself in this situation, and after such a short time. Chin up and all that good man.

In the early days of my career i just took every opportunity, even if i could smell a rat. But overtime i just stopped dealing with rats, and not just in my work. So now i have an absolutely zero tolerance apporach to bad vibe people in my life, period. They don’t deserve me or my time. Sure i’ve missed some jobs because of that, but i’ve always made enough money and it is so much better not dealing with ass-hats. So yeah i can be offered a ‘Billion Dollars!’ and if your an arse, or doing arsey things, then no thanks. Money isn’t everything (so not the ‘amercian way’!) as it transpires.

I do realise this may not be good advice for an American working in America. I’m just thankful the whole world isn’t ‘American’ in this way…yet.

1625

Thanks for all the advice Nixxter! It always helps to hear from people who’ve made it through.

I think I posted about my situation when it first started, but I’m not even sure if that was in this thread. I’m in a bit of a different situation than a lot of people here I think. I’m 25 and last October was essentially kicked out of my graduate program in classical archaeology. They let me stay until I finished my masters, but this isn’t really where I’d planned on being about now. I didn’t really burn any bridges, but the whole situation was a bit of a mess so didn’t leave on the best of terms either.

I made the mistake of going straight into grad school from undergrad, so my only real work experience are the jobs I had in high school and college. For a while I was looking into teaching high school, but more because that’s what people who leave these programs with a masters do rather than out of more than passing interest. That would also mean going straight back to school for another 3 years or so to become certified, which isn’t something I can afford to do right now either financially or emotionally.

I’ve passed the exams to apprentice as a carpenter, and have some informal experience with it, but have no contacts in the field so haven’t had much luck finding a sponsor. That’s what I was working on yesterday. Oh and for the two resumes, I meant sending resumes to the two separate places that said they’d accept them. Not two to the same place, sorry.

I’ve looked into contract archaeology as well, but I’ve had a similar problem there. My only contacts are from back home (they don’t have any work anyway), and I have the wrong degree. It’s also a highly competitive, unstable, and low-paying field.

1626

Uh, thanks Zak. I feel a little less patriotic now. :)

1627

Huh. You know I think it did happen that way. I didn’t even realize it until you pointed it out.

Thanks for all the encouraging words, Nixxter. I do need to make an effort to keep my head on straight.

1628

That’s just Zak’s schtick. You get used to it.

1629

Affirmative, man. As much as I dislike the railroad for how often it screwed me over (I guess tried to), it was a very stable job with a salary that wasn’t that bad. Since my fac trade fell through, I’ll probably be unemployed for a little bit, but moving back to Montana means more to me than the ATC pay.

If anyone is interested, the RR pays well, and I’d encourage you to apply if you’re looking for a stable career (just saw an announcement of $32.xx/hr for a railcar repairman in Loveland, CO) with one of the most guaranteed retirements. And if an air traffic control announcement is made, and you have a very assertive, quick mind, apply for it. Pay isn’t bad (65-250K/yr, with DEN making about 150K, 1-hr on, 1-off) and if your personality is right, you can thrive on the stress.

Anyway, as for me, I’m ditching. I want to move to MT and start a family. Hiking and fishing is my life. Money…not so much.

1630

Just as you say that, the FAA is talking hard about shutting down weather operations nearly everywhere, so my job is on the line again. Stuck in a situation where the pay is too good to quit and risk starting somewhere new, but I may have to.

I’m worried as hell because I’ve never been able to land a job through the traditional channels, it’s always been through government somehow. That option won’t be open to me anymore unless I get picked to go to Alaska, which I don’t really want to do, but would be the most stable option. I’ll have to go back to school and hope I can get something from that (I do have GI Bill and enough savings to make it through without debt)

My goal is to make enough here to pay my bills, not kill myself in the process, and not have to worry about job every year like I do now.

Edit: official as of today, they are aiming to eliminate my position, and for all but the 40 or so largest airports in the US+ Alaska. Crazy and unsafe.

1631

I’m for actual real people and improving their lives, over corporations and the elite that run them that need another ferrari to feel ‘worthwhile’. I hate that anyone has to be a pawn in their game, as most people really do work hard and do their best (as in have professional pride in their work), but in the Corporate world it isn’t all about that, and when all that matters is the profits, why should they pay more for a worker when they can get one cheaper, or manufacture a situation to get rid of the more expensive worker. The rights of the Corporation (the 1%) over the right of the worker (us).

All our ancestors have fought hard (and died) to reduce the effect of the ‘feudal’ system, but here we are creating it all over again, but in many ways a much more globally harmful and destructive version, and giving away our individual hard-won rights hand over fist. It’s daft, and dangerous, and killing us all and our future.

1632

I have to agree with you on this one, Zak (for once ;-P ).

I am done with corporate bullshit. I may be making a lot less money, but at least I will have the possibility to be happy at my job.

1633

I make a lot less money working for the company I work for now than companies for which I worked in the past. Yeah, I could use that cash (we sold TWO houses during the recession and lost a ton of money, AND I had kids in college while I was out of work, so we have debt to get rid of - in our 50s.) But I have never been happier in my life in a job. I get offers for jobs at large global corporations, for a lot less money, but my wife reminds me of how I come home smiling from our executive team meetings now, vs. coming home sweating and stressed out in the past.

I tell people who are facing career choices, whether it is in my company or outside, the goal is to find the job that gives you the most of what makes your quality of life better. Sure, money is part of that. But only part. An interesting exercise is to write down all the factors that effect your quality of life on a piece of paper. Then write down, say on a scale of 1 to 10, how important each of these factors are to your happiness and quality of life.

Then, as you look at your options, score each option on each of those items. It can make it pretty clear which job will make you the happiest. For example, I have job security very high on my list. Having been forced to go find a new job 3 times since 2004, due to screwed up companies or companies being purchased and then stripped down, having a job which is owned by 3 family members (there are others who chose not to go into the business) who LOVE the business, have repeatedly turned down tons of cash to sell, and who have made it very clear that the ONLY time they would sell “Grandpa’s business” (their late grandfather immigrated to America and started the business in the 1920s) is a huge stress reliever for me. It is much more important than a job that pays more but which is likely as not to go through 10 re-orgs and being purchased, etc. 10 times in the next 10 years (BTDT.) If you have small children, it may be time spent with your kids in that 10 seconds in which they are small children. For my brother, for various reasons, it is remaining in the town in which he lives.

You’ll likely have 7 to 10 factors - score them without showing them to a lot of people, you want to be completely honest with yourself. It’s an interesting exercise to grade options that way.

1634

JeffL, I’ll buy your book when it comes out (wink wink). Good mix of solid advice + anecdotes.

1635

Yes Zak, I know exactly what you’re for and what you’re against. Mainly because you never stop talking about it.

1636

It goes to show our experiences are indeed unique. A lot of what applies to my situation isn’t valid in yours, but there is one thing I thought of, but didn’t mention. I think you are already headed in this direction …

I’ve always been impulsive (tempered in recent years thankfully). In this case, I got fed up with not finding a six figure job in my field and took another path when I got tired of being stuck, and no firms being interested in what I have to offer, and responded to one that did (took another path). You’ve had some forks in the road too. I wouldn’t call those mistakes, rather, they are part of you and your history and you grow from your experiences (you’ll look back on this years later and most likely, you won’t want any do-overs, and will be glad it worked out the way it did, oddly enough).

What I was going to say earlier, but forgot, is I think there is value in being willing to try something completely different, and, you are already considering multiple angles.

You have to be in the right spot to do that … and, probably, the right spot doesn’t include desperation (but, it might). In my case, I am in a good spot to take some risk and try something completely different, but it’s also an area I know pretty well from the prior work I have done. And, what helped here for me was I redefined “success” as likely not making a six figure income, instead, paying my bills and being able to continue to set money aside for retirement. What helped too is in the short run, I do have just enough savings to start up a new business without cutting into retirement monies. In many ways, it sounds like you are in the right spot too. Your edumacation, and your training as apprentice carpenter, put you in that position too, where you could qualify for different types of work. Just be open to other, different opportunities too (sounds like you are!), and to seeking them out, or, at least, responding and then checking them out to see if it’s something you would be interested and engaged in.

1637

Nixxter makes a good point. Most people are forced to decide, when they are seniors in high school with no real life experience and their mind still developing: “What do you want to do FOR THE REST OF YOUR LIFE???” How in the heck does a 17 or 18 year old kid make that decision? Yet, we do, we choose our major somehow, and then once in college, most feel like they can’t change it, because college cost so much and you can’t start over and what would our parents think and everyone else we went through college with that are graduating, etc. Yet, how many people who are in their, say, 30s or 40s, would choose to major in what they majored in if they had a “do-over” and could start all over with no negative implications? I’ll raise my hand - I really enjoy my job, I’ve been a science geek for a long time, I even went so far as to get my Ph.D. - but if I had it to do over I’d be a psychologist or psychiatrist.

My point is, if you are faced with unemployment and looking for a new job, it is a good chance to step back and think whether this is a chance to choose a new path forward? Yeah, it may not be as easy as, OK, all my training and experience is in IT but I REALLY want to be a vet - but maybe there is a related area? I had a scientist who worked for me who was BRILLIANT - but like a lot of scientists who are brilliant, he was very outspoken. And not subtle about it. Trying to teach him that “right” is not the same thing as “effective” was a real challenge. But when he and I were both let go as the company went through a crisis, I urged him to think about becoming a professor. He chafed at the structure of industrial science/working in a company. Yes, there are politics and some structure in academia, but being able to run his own research group and have the independence a tenured prof in the sciences have was a much better fit for him. It was a BIG pay cut. But now, 8 years later, he is tenured, has his group, has developed the network for funding, and he loves that companies pay him a lot to come consult and give the advice that he would have to fight to get anyone to listen to were he actually working at those companies! He loves it. But he would have never gone that path if he had not been fired.

Short version: If you are out of work and looking for a job, at least think about whether this is an opportunity for some kind of career re-direction you would have never had if still working for a company.

FWIW

1638

I’ve never been involved in the traffic management unit side of things, but I thought they utilized y’all heavily for sector overload predictions. Is it all just going to automation?

The GI bill is awesome and you could do anything you want with it, so that’s a huge relief. Still not sure what I’m going to do. So far no one knows I’m planning to ditch, and I don’t want to be unemployed, but I am going to be applying for a job managing rail traffic in Montana this week. The quality of life makes it worth it to me.

1639

I can agree with this, I left school and went in to retail management and spent 20 years doing it. At 36 when my son was born I decided i never wanted to be a retail person again. Long hours, not great wages against the hours and weekend working + load of stress and pressure meant unhappy me. So I quit and took a job in a digital mailroom working as a person that sorted mail on low wages but with opportunities

That led to production management, project management, account management and contract negotiater. So while there is some mangement in there it was so different than what i oringally did. 7.30am - 15.30pm mon-fri, 20% increase in wages, paid overtime, bigger bonuses .

Now we have lost a contract and I am redundant but it means I now have lots more opportunities than before. I have my wife to thanks as she supported me in this choice but it was one of the best changes I ever made.

1640

Basically, they’re planning to shift all our work onto you, which is going to increase your workload during bad weather heavily. They can hire more ATCs to make up for it, but one ATC= half our budget.

They did say a minimum of one year, and there will be protests to delay it more I believe, but unless something changes I’ll be out of a job somepoint late next year. I’ve got plans, but I don’t want to jump into them because I earn too much where I’m at now.