1801

It’s total BS. Surprisingly, in all my technical interviews in the last few months, I only had one person ask me that. And I believe that specific interview process was effectively ended when I basically said that “No, I spend my free time outdoors or with my family”.

In the end, it’s a huge red flag for me when interviewers ask that. To me, the implication is that the job will not be stimulating enough and that the work will not provide the proper challenges and technologies to keep my skills current. For me, I want an employer and a job that is interested in keeping my skills fresh with challenges at work. I don’t want that burden implicitly pushed onto me in my free time.

Now, that’s not to say that I don’t find personal projects and/or OSS software exciting (I do sometimes), I just don’t like the implication that it is necessary to get hired.

1802

This is something that worries me a lot. I’m delving into programming as a career move from a completely unrelated background (Journalism degree, 2+ years in support for credit card authorization service, then 4+ years in education support) because, well, I’m pretty sure I can do it, it pays well, and I might be able to get a job in it without getting a full degree (although I am taking classes online @ my employer, a large university, to work toward a master’s, but since I have absolutely 0 pre-reqs, I’m looking at 8+ years at my current pace).

On the flipside, at least thus far, I don’t particularly love it. I don’t hate it either, but I just see it as “a thing I can do with my time to make money for a company.” It’s a job, not a passion, not a lifelong dream, not an integral part of my persona. I don’t really plan to do anything outside of work for it–I’d rather engage in my actual hobbies (which don’t easily translate into consistent, stable income-earning jobs).

But I feel like that, since I don’t just gaze lovingly at Vim 22 Red Bull-fueled hours a day, I’m at an even bigger disadvantage than I was already (coming in near or at 30 without a degree or any previous experience also isn’t gonna be fun–or even better, 35+ with a degree and still no experience!). That I’m also not really willing to work 10+ hours of overtime 50%+ weeks a year makes it feel like this is actually a dumb decision, but it’s the best thing I can figure out for myself right now.

1803

I don’t know man, I think that whole “passion” thing can be overrated. I mean it should be something you at least get some fulfillment out of, it sucks to have to drag yourself out of bed in the morning to get to work. And it must be awesome to have a job that is a complete blast and you can’t wait to start doing every day. But I’d be curious how many people are really in that position? Certainly not me. I mean, I don’t really do software development anymore really, but I certainly would not put my spare time into writing code just for the hell of it, life’s too short.

1804

Which is exactly why I stopped looking for programming positions when I did. For a while, part of my interview spiel was explaining that the reason that I switched career paths is because I felt that I had a comparative advantage in non technical skills (writing, communication, etc), whereas the hardcore programmers have a comparative advantage in programming.

I think, looking at it today, that while this may be broadly true, it’s also true that some of those vim/redbull types are still pretty terrible at what they’re doing, they just do a lot of it. And there was probably some Dunning-Kruger effect going on. I’ve worked with some very minimally competent programmers since then. (I was also concerned about outsourcing programming to offshore companies devaluing programming work, which I, personally, now feel is probably an overblown concern because the communication and code quality from some of those offshore farms is terrible).

Unfortunately, the question is: do hiring managers feel the same way? I’m not sure.

1805

There are other reasons to ask about open source projects. It’s very difficult to gauge coding ability on a whiteboard, or with take-home exercises, or other manufactured tasks. When possible, it’s much better to be able to review real, production code the person has written. Open source contributions are ideal for that. Similarly, an open source community is a golden opportunity to observe, even retroactively, how a person works on a distributed team. Being able to dig into mailing list archives, commit histories, code review interactions, etc, is absolutely invaluable to a prospective employer. These days it’s also not uncommon for the job itself to have an open source aspect to it, and thus prior experience with open source communities is a big plus.

Now, if they’re asking more about doing coding on your own time rather than the open source aspect, things are a bit different. In that case, it gets a bit iffier, but can still be reasonable. In many fields, it’s generally expected that individuals pursue professional development activities to some degree outside of work time. One can certainly make a reasonable argument that that’s bullshit, but it’s certainly the case and is by no means just engineering. Asking about open source, hobby projects, etc, is a sideways way of asking if you’re actively working to improve and expand your skills.

1806

Yeah. I mean, I get that there are reasonable, non-sinister reasons that it would be a legitimate request.

I just think it’s an irritating part of programmer/techie culture that seeps into the job market. Nobody expects lawyers to review contracts in their spare time, or asks actuaries if they evaluate risk on weekends.

1807

Actually, lawyers have continuing legal education requirements (mandatory hours of non-work legal training). Most of us also keep up with case law and other developments in our respective fields.

I think it comes down to the amount of non-work time that employers expect. Culturally, our society often expects (reasonably or not) that professionals are masters of their field and not just timecard-punchers. As many have attested to in this very thread, work alone can be very narrow in terms of the exposure you get to your respective field. Hence the extra-curricular time expectation.

1808

Professional development is important but coding on the side projects is not only one way to do that for software engineers. Some of the best programmers I’ve worked spend a few hours a week reading up on new tech via blogs or Twitter or the like, not on side projects. Coding on the side is a great way to build a portfolio for some but I don’t agree that side projects alone should be weighed so heavily.

But of course YMMV, I’ve known smart programmers with side projects too.

1809

As a hiring manager, I will not exclude you from a job because you don’t program on the side, but if I have two or more candidates, I will prioritize hiring the one who does.

The reason is quite simple. I prefer people who really like their job. People who code on the side enjoy it a lot. They will consistently do a better job and go further in their career than people who do not. It doesn’t have to be anything serious, it could be modding a game, or helping a family member who owns a business, or working with non-profits, like churches or whatever build a web page.

Speaking of non-profits, I also value candidates who volunteer at non-profits because people who juggle a job, family & still find time to volunteer are people who are very well organized.

1810

Is CLE stuff supposed to be done off-hours? My wife’s a lawyer, and although I know that she has done that, I haven’t really seen her doing it at home. Maybe it’s just that she does it at work during non-billable periods. Regardless, there are a lot of differences what with the CLE actually being part of a standard requirement for a certification, as opposed to just an undefined expectation.

1811

It can be done off or on work hours, but it certainly isn’t billable work. Basically, it’s all the same: it’s time that you’re not doing the work that you’re paid for, so it’s extra time before you go home.

And I agree on the more formal nature of CLE. That means, of course, that in the legal professional the extra-curricular time is actually even more formally adopted than your issue. I raised it as a counterpoint to your position that what you saw was unique to the field of programming.

Also, a lot of attorneys (particularly ones at smaller practices) do a lot of extra stuff like bar associations, teaching, pro bono work, etc. both because they enjoy it and because it is expected in the field (e.g., to get your name out there).

1812

That’d be a totally reasonable way to approach that question in an interview. Use it as a way to talk about whatever it is you do that fills the continuing education niche. Bit of a fine line to tread there, as you want to use the question as a segue, but done poorly it can easily come across as avoiding the question, which is the opposite of what you really want. Then if that wasn’t actually what they were wanting to get out of the question, they can follow up with something more specific without feeling like they’re having to poke and prod to pin you down. If body language is suggesting they may be feeling that way, you can explicitly ask if that answered their question and invite those follow ups.

To me, an interview for an engineering position is a conversation. While there are specific things I’m looking to get answers to, and points I want to convey to the candidate, it’s also important that the candidate have the chance to convey to me what they think is important and to get answers from me about things they care about. It’s not a standardized test. It’s a bi-directional process to determine if there’s a mutual fit.

1813

As an employee reading this, I would not want to work in this enviroment or with you or for you. Personally I wouldn’t find it a loss not the getting the job, more a lucky escape.

1814

Wow, all that animosity. I guess I’m just blind to what you find so offensive. I wanted to give an example that there are people who do like people who program outside of work. So many people can’t seem to see why it’s a valid question. When you get a lot of good people, it’s things like this that will set yourself apart from the pack.

1815

I think it’s because–for better or for worse–that attitude is very tied up in the perception (justified or not) of many programming jobs–particular in the games industry–taking advantage of their young employees enthusiasm for the job by making them work long, unpaid hours of overtime at (comparatively) pitiful wages. Basically, saying you’re looking for people who love coding and would do it all the time if they could is exactly the sort of thing a manager working at a company described above would say.

Which isn’t to say that your company is like that, or that you personally want to take advantage of your employees/new hires. But it’s very easy to arrive at the same conclusion (hobbyist programmers/passion programmers are awesome!) for good and bad reasons. As is often the case, bad news tends to travel faster :(

1816

It’s a perfectly valid question. I just happen to think it’s an unfortunate one, which is more a sociological (and, ultimately, capitalist) critique than any kind of comment on individual companies or hiring policies. But that’s P&R material and I don’t think there’s any point to discussing it.

1817

Tman totally has a point - having been on the hiring end it can quite often be difficult to pick out the best person for the job. If you have two or more extremely qualified people who interview well, you’re looking for some edge to push one of them over to hire. That said, while Reemul’s point may have been a little aggressively stated, having also been on the job seeking end of things, he’s got a point. If I’m up for a job with a dozen other people equally qualified, I’m not going to be your monkey just to try to catch your eye. That shit’s a young man’s game, and that’s not me anymore.

1818

Thanks for taking the time to answer. Well, I do not ask if people code outside so they can work long hours. As I stated, I like it when they code OUTSIDE of work, and I have no intention of dipping into that time. When someone codes outside of their normal day job, it tells me they love it and people who love to code just do better longer term, in my experience.

Some of the first people I hired were a number of gamers who coded on mods or utilities for game engines. They’re all still gainfully employed and still coding after what I think has been 15 years. While I can’t always hire someone who codes outside of work, it will set you above your peers, all other things considered equal.

While I really don’t like discussing where I work, it is not a gaming company. We’re a large multi-national who employees thousands of coders just to keep the company running. Purchasing, Manufacturing, web sites, labs, drivers, bios, and a lot of open source.

1819

I can ad some clarity around my views.

I worked as a retail manager for 16 years and 4 years previous to that in retail, so from 15-35. To start with I was told the more the better, will help your career will show how good you are, show willing and you will shine. This was true by the time I was 20 I was manager of my own shop turning over £500k a year. Then they need more, if you want to run a bigger store, earn more money they need more, eventually I was working 80/90 hours a week for 39 hours wage, starting at 5am working till 10pm, working Saturdays, Sundays. Also covering other peoples stores, cancelling holidays, going on additional courses to stay in the lead and on top.

Salary was pretty good but I had no life. I was knackered when at home and at work. I was damn good at what I did but so were a lot of the others and they were doing the same, my best mate still works for the company as a regional manager and he looks like shite and his life outside work is shite.

Who benefitted from this, well my company but was my benefit worth the loss of time, in no way was it ever. It is something I regret till this day.

My best friend and brother in law and I met sisters and married them. Pete was a scientist, he worked on cures for cancers at Cambridge University. He had 3 daughters aged 3, 5 and 7 (I am a god parent to he eldest and youngest)and was 34 when he died of bowel cancer. His work was his life and the week before he died I sat on his bed and told him I was quitting my job for the reasons above and he said that is the best thing you can do, find something you like but don’t let it take over your life like I did mine.

My dad was a Royal Marine and spent most of my childhood years somewhere else, while we get on we aren’t that close, we aren’t a close family and my dad is withdrawn at times, it was all work for him.

Another work colleague is 45 and spent most of his working life working, he has 3 kids, 24 and twins who are now 18, he has no relationship with them at all because he was never there for them, he was always working or when not at work doing work related stuff.

When I quit and Pete died, my wife and I had just had our son who was 2 weeks old. I swore I would be there for them rather than doing extra for a faceless company too make them more money. I got a job as an Account / Production Manager for a Document Management Company, I worked 7.30am - 15.30pm Mon - Fri. I earnt 20% more than I did in retail and my company had the same attitude to employment as I had, Family and downtime was important, very important.

I have interviewed 1000’s of people and employed 100’s and making the right choice is never easy but I no longer just look at who says they do the most or the longest, I look at the whole package they are going to bring not just an i do so much extra work.

At present I am unemployed having lost my job 8 weeks ago due to the company I supplied changing from local suppliers to global ones an unfortunate situation but no reflection on my staff or I. I am discussion with a new company who are looking to create a new role for me and so far it is looking great and both interviews have included talks about work, time, extra work, downtime, hobbies and the importance of family and life outside of work.

So when I read comments like this, Speaking of non-profits, I also value candidates who volunteer at non-profits because people who juggle a job, family & still find time to volunteer are people who are very well organized. it is just such a load of bollock. There is only so many hours in the week, they never change, every hour you spend doing something else you take away from someone else. Friends, Family, loved ones are so important and there is no way to be more organised to spend some no profit time doing something (my father in law volunteers at a soup kitchen weekly, but hey his kids are grown up and he has some time to do it) without removing it from something else. Too often today we read about family not mattering, parents letting kids sit in front of ipads or the tv and not spending the time with them, or working longer hours to earn more money to buy them bigger ipads and more expensive phones.

So forgive me if I don’t get a little peeved at times.

1820

It also might be a cultural clash, a usa vs uk one in terms of the importance of making money? In the usa it is all about the money, it’s instilled in your bones from a very young age and it is the number 1 priority of all good americans.

In the uk we’re a little less peddle to the metal, we’ve been a Super Power, we’ve had the ‘workhouse’, in other words we’ve lived the current american dream and come out the other side and in general are less interested in all that, and are feeling around for our place in our post Super Power stage. I also am finding that family time is a rising concern for more people in the uk than maybe it used to be (say in the Thatcher era etc), certainly amongst my friends and work partners. Money is nice to have, but it is not the be all and end all it once was.