Justify this one, taser apologists

Marcus · 2012-03-04T11:43:10.000Z

Uh well we don’t really give a fuck about the dogs because the dogs are property. End of story.

Mike_O_Malley · 2012-03-04T14:43:33.000Z

Jason_Townsend · 2012-03-04T14:48:52.000Z

Our Lady of Martyrs smoked Beulah Presbyterian pretty hard in that sign war.

Houngan · 2012-03-04T19:24:28.000Z

Marcus:

Uh well we don’t really give a fuck about the dogs because the dogs are property. End of story.

Hey, keep your entirely relevant professional insight out of our kneejerk feel-fest, dammit. (For the new folks around here, Marcus is a real-deal po-lice.)

H.

drbob · 2012-03-05T03:33:05.000Z

Stepsongrapes:

It’s reasonable to say that mistakes (from a professional standpoint) were made in this situation. I think you’re then left with asking yourself how do you plan to address or punish those mistakes. Could this have been handled better? Almost certainly. Are we certain enough about that to punish (which is separate from retrain, etc.) these officers? Are we sure that there was malice involved, and if not, is something less than malice enough to convict one of these cops of a crime?

Sure, from my understanding that is what the crime of manslaughter is for. If someone dies due to a persons incompetence at their job, then the person or people responsible can be charged with manslaugher. It can be far more remote than this situation. Managers responsible for not properly training or monitoring the actions of people on the ground can also be held responsible if someone loses their life. No malice or premeditation has to be involved.

The fact that the police resorted to violence as their first and only tactic in this incident strikes me as hugely incompetent. They shot him in the face with the taser as he emerged from the restaurant and then closed in, actions bound to provoke a fight or flight response in their victim. If that is the correct recognised procedure for dealing with a suspect who has not injured anyone then there is something systemically wrong with that police force. The primary responsibility of the police should have been to safely defuse the situation, instead they dramatically escalated the danger to both the public and the suspect.

As I learn more about this incident I find myself strongly agreeing with the others who’ve suggested a wide perimeter and use of the police protocols for dealing with the mentally ill would have been far more appropriate.

Brad_Grenz · 2012-03-05T04:00:16.000Z

They probably did not want him to go back inside and take hostages as soon as they announced themselves.

Dejin · 2012-03-05T04:52:03.000Z

I’m not convinced releasing the dog would have been sufficient in this case. There just wasn’t that much time between the guy tearing the tazers leads out of his face and him taking a swing at the officer. If the guy with the pipe was really insistent on taking a swing at the officer, given the short time frame the most the dog would have done was put him off balance. The swing still could have crippled or killed the targeted officer.

I can’t speak to whether or not they could have handled the situation up to this a bit better, or whether the second officer was justified in also shooting. But overall the shooting seems justified.

Houngan · 2012-03-05T07:07:54.000Z

I don’t think anyone is saying that the officer’s were explicitly in the wrong, everyone was too close to the guy to allow a well-considered response. I still would have preferred him to be Johnny-on-the-spot and try the dog, but I understand completely that there was a fraction of a second left before the impotent-taser cop was going to be in trouble. Whether we can blame the cops for being in a bad tactical situation would require a lot more information about the civilians around them, timeline, etc. Also a thought: Why not two tasers? Just so crazy it might work, you know in the one situation where it is actually the right tool for the job, incapacitating a person wielding a non-projectile weapon without killing them. Maybe if the guy had been a mouthy black woman at a traffic stop with a crowbar this could have turned out better.

bmceldowney · 2012-03-05T15:04:56.000Z

Marcus:

Uh well we don’t really give a fuck about the dogs because the dogs are property. End of story.

I respect your opinion as an officer of the law but I also respect the opinions of a couple of your fellow officers as well:

Lt. Rick Taylor:

“You have people who are dog people and people who are cat people, and there is nothing better than having your partner with you all the time,” he said. “They truly become a part of your family. They’re not that extra piece of equipment.”

Officer Jeff Barrett:

“It’s a bond that’s very hard to describe,” he said. “It’s 10 fold over because you get paid to interact with this dog, and the dog responds to you in a way that’s so unique. You get very attached to him and they just become and appendage for you.”

I agree that this side-bar conversation should end though so I’ll end with this:

It’s quite clear to me that my statement, “Police dogs are just as valuable as human officers,” was not true in a legal, financial or philosophical sense and I am deeply sorry to everyone in this thread for any physical or psychological harm that it may have caused.

ShivaX · 2012-03-05T15:43:51.000Z

bmceldowney:

It’s quite clear to me that my statement, “Police dogs are just as valuable as human officers,” was not true in a legal, financial or philosophical sense and I am deeply sorry to everyone in this thread for any physical or psychological harm that it may have caused.

Actually…

In most states, a police dog is considered a full-fledged police officer, sometimes even given a badge. As such, most laws find assaulting a police dog to be equal or very similar to assaulting a human officer, and as a result some agencies will deem it acceptable for officers to open fire on a person who is intentionally hurting a police dog, with apparent attempt to kill it. However, this is not a unanimous policy.

thrasymedes · 2012-03-05T15:46:57.000Z

skedastic:

Here’s what did not happen: Some asshole robbed a Carl’s Jr, shot a kid in the face, and tried to kill a cop whilst making his getaway, so the cops had no choice but to shoot the asshole.

Here’s what did happen: A 22 year old man named Steven Rodriguez, a man with no criminal history, went into a Carl’s Jr and broke windows with a pipe. He hurt no one and robbed no one. Upon exiting the Carl’s Jr, we was approached by four cops, who, to their credit, first tried to tase him, then one of them for some reason put himself within swinging range of the pipe. Rodriguez made a threatening motion with the pipe, so one cop shot him in the gut five times. A second cop subsequently shot him five more times. In the back.

Perhaps given the circumstances—a deranged man who had many opportunities to hurt someone but had not done so—the police might have invoked protocols they are supposed to use when dealing with the mentally ill. “Approach aggressively, with guns drawn and shouting, and place oneself in range of blunt object held by individual” is not one of those protocols.

Again, I don’t this is clearly misconduct, but I don’t see any reason to express glee over this man’s death.

This. Except I think it probably is misconduct, or maybe just incompetence. We don’t have enough information to be 100% certain, but this is obviously a case of mental illness and the man obviously needs treatment. If he’s swinging a pipe around, stay out of reach.

Stepsongrapes · 2012-03-05T15:49:00.000Z

ShivaX:

Actually…

Source?

bmceldowney · 2012-03-05T16:07:03.000Z

ShivaX:

Actually…

Yeah, but that’s on Wikipedia.

I could not find any supporting info in the links or in my research, which is why I didn’t try to use it as a source. Pity too, because it would have been damned convenient.

Stepsongrapes · 2012-03-05T16:12:06.000Z

bmceldowney:

Yeah, but that’s on Wikipedia.

I could not find any supporting info in the links or in my research, which is why I didn’t try to use it as a source. Pity too, because it would have been damned convenient.

This webpage, which actually lists state statutes, seems to show the exact opposite of what ShivaX posted: http://www.policek9.com/html/statutes.html

These are specific, police dog/horse specific crimes. Most are relatively low punishment (compared to killing a cop, for example) and none say dog=cop.

I suspect ShivaX realized that no citation at all is superior to unsourced wiki material.

ShivaX · 2012-03-05T17:41:13.000Z

Heres my state:

Iowa

INJURY OR INTERFERENCE WITH A POLICE SERVICE DOG:

A person who knowinly, and willfully or maliciously torments, strikes, administers a non-poisonous desensitizing substance ro, or ortherwise interferes with a police service dog, without inflicting serious injury on the dog, commits a serious misdemeanor [ up to 1 year jail and/or $1000.00 fine]

A person who knowingly, and willfully or maliciously does any of the following commits a Class “D” felony [ 5 years and/or $7500.00 fine ]:

a. tortures a police service dog

b. injures, so as to disfigure or disable, a PSD

c. set a booby trap device for the purpose of injury, so as to disfigure or disable, or killing a PSD.

d. pays or agrees to pay bounty for purposes of injury, so as to disfigure or disable, killing a PSD.

e. kills a police service dog

f. administers poison to a police service dog

As used in this section, “police service dog” means a dog used by apeace officer or correctional officer in the performance of the officer’s duties, whether or not the dog is on duty.

This section does apply to a peace officer or veterinarian who terminates the life of such a dog for the purpose of relieving the dog of undue pain or suffering, or to a person who justifiably acts in defense or self or another.

http://www.policek9.com/html/statutes.html

I’m not going to look up every state or every case in every state.

Stepsongrapes · 2012-03-05T17:50:05.000Z

ShivaX:

Heres my state:

http://www.policek9.com/html/statutes.html

I’m not going to look up every state or every case in every state.

Are you just bombing this thread without bothering to read anything in it? I posted that EXACT link in the reply above yours.

Kill a police dog, get 5 years. That’s a little shy of killing a cop, I suspect. I suspect you’ll get a good chunk of those 5 years (if not more) if you blew up a police car, for example. Is a police car a cop too?

You pulled some wikipedia quote which goes well beyond what the law actually provides. Citing the an actual statute ain’t really backing what you originally posted.

ShivaX · 2012-03-05T18:01:17.000Z

Stepsongrapes:

Are you just bombing this thread without bothering to read anything in it? I posted that EXACT link in the reply above yours.

Not reading the post right before mine = not reading anything?

Gotcha.

I’ll leave you all to jerk off about shit unrelated to the thread. Forgive me for responding to a specific statement one person made. On a forum no less. On the fucking internet even. From America!

And the penalty for walking outside and shooting my neighbor’s dog for no reason at all is effectively nothing. Like a tiny fine. Killing a police dog is a felony. Blowing up my neighbor’s car is a felony, so is blowing up a police car. Blowing up anything thats not yours is likely to get you in a lot of trouble.

Scotch_Lufkin · 2012-03-09T07:53:37.000Z

Stepsongrapes:

Are you just bombing this thread without bothering to read anything in it? I posted that EXACT link in the reply above yours.

Kill a police dog, get 5 years. That’s a little shy of killing a cop, I suspect. I suspect you’ll get a good chunk of those 5 years (if not more) if you blew up a police car, for example. Is a police car a cop too?

You pulled some wikipedia quote which goes well beyond what the law actually provides. Citing the an actual statute ain’t really backing what you originally posted.

U mad bro?

Jag · 2012-03-12T18:03:21.000Z

9 year old tased for not going to school:

According to O’Neil’s written account: He arrived at the home just before 8:30 a.m. to take the boy into custody. Jared refused to cooperate and wouldn’t put on his shoes to go with the officer. He begged his mother, Michelle Perry, to let him go to school rather than with the officer, but Perry told her son it was too late.

rowe33 · 2012-03-12T18:14:21.000Z

Jag:

9 year old tased for not going to school:

Holy crap, the kid is a 200-250 pound 9-year-old?!?!