At the price of devaluing the post-Kickstarter version for perpetuity, which is why I really think project runners would be better off in the long term doing at most cosmetic exclusives and preferably none. Especially since the people you lure in with gameplay exclusives seem to be a bunch of petulant entitled assholes, by and large.
olaf
3528
Seven Dragon Saga is not getting funded enough right now. I want everyone here that ever played an SSI gold box game to both back this game and shout about it on social media.
tgb123
3529
I learned about the backer kerfuffle after purchasing the game. From what I understand, KIckstarters were promised some exclusive content at a certain tier, and now that content will be offered to anyone who wants it as DLC. Is that pretty much it? If it is, it does seem a bit deceptive, and might have colored my decision to buy.
Anyway, buy I did. Yesterday I kept running into a persistant crsh bug that kept me from getting more than a handful of turns into the game, but it seems to have vanished. I finally was able to play a complete game this morning, and it really is quite unique and very enjoyable.
olaf
3530
And…they canceled the KS today.
Sounds like they are going to run it again but with a lower goal.
Razgon
3532
Its a shame, but I think they saw the writing on the wall - I don’t think they could have reached the goal at all. Perhaps with a better campaign they have a greater chance.
Alstein
3533
I think those backer-exclusive DLCs can do harm as well as good. If I know I’m not going to be able to get everything with a game, it’s enough to make me not want to get a game period. The Shantae kickstarter- when they started putting out $45 and $100 backer-exclusive DLCs, I just said I’m not even giving you $15. I’m not going to go above what I think a game is potentially worth.
People say you’re not supposed to view KS’ers as pre-orders, but I think that’s exactly what they are. You’re pre-ordering a game, site unseen, because you think the expected value of what you’re getting will exceed what you put in, knowing there is a risk (and a higher one than just EA)
The missing content in a game is something that really drives down the value of a game for me, enough to make me say no sale completely.
@Alstein: I largely agree, and that’s part of why I dislike games that have tons of DLC/expansions as well. I waited until Heir to the Throne was available before buying EU3 (as part of their 2nd ‘complete’ pack), and then I was annoyed shortly thereafter when I heard about Divine Wind. The same is true for so many modern games. Post release support is great, and 1-2 big expansions or smaller DLC that add side content don’t bother me as much, but if it’s something that seems really valuable to the core game then I want to have it with my first playthrough (because I rarely have time to replay games). So when I know that a developer has additional update-expansions coming in the future, I consider that a strong disincentive to buy the game now.
I recently listened to a DLC discussion on a years-old episode of the 3MA podcast, and someone (Tom I think?) made a related argument: A game like Fallout3 has unobtrusive DLC because it’s integrated as side-quests/areas that don’t interfere with the core game. That’s critical for me because it means I can play the core game and not feel like it’s missing something important.
I think the same logic applies to KS. I don’t mind KS backers getting special items or content for backing at a higher tier, but I don’t want that special stuff to be a critical piece of the core game. If it’s physical items like miniatures or T-Shirts, that’s easy to judge. If it’s a side-quest or an extra character or extra classes/abilities/items, then the lines get blurrier. At some point though, the devs/publishers put me in a funny pricing situation where I say: I want all that extra content, but I don’t think the sum of that content is worth $100. So rather than buying any of it early, I’ll wait a while and buy it as a discounted bundle. If the bundle never comes, that’s OK too because my backlog cup will forever runneth over.
I agree with the idea that exclusive game content in general is not the greatest idea, especially if it conveys an advantage in some way. But in the example that brought this up, Armello, the exclusive items are essentially skins. Or, since it’s a digital board game, additional pieces. Non-backers never get to play the top hat, but they can still be the thimble if they want.
It’s not a perfect analogy because these pieces do have distinct stats and abilities (inherent and granted by equipment), but so do all the characters. They’re supposed to be balanced, so that every character is viable. So unless LoG make a terrible decision and make the Bandit Clan uberanimals, the primary loss is still aesthetic.
So, yes, I’m a little annoyed that I paid more money than I would have to get an exclusive that is no longer exclusive. I’m more annoyed that LoG chose to address the complaints of Steam community over keeping their promise to the backers (just because I completely understand why doesn’t make it a stand up move). At least, they’re trying to make it up to folks by giving out future content free, but that’s not the same as my little identifier that says “Hey! I was one of the ones who helped at the beginning!” I don’t think that makes me a “petulant entitled asshole,” but I could be wrong.
Honestly, what really bothers me is the lack of cross-platform play for Armello. Guys, don’t say you can do it if you haven’t really looked into it first!
Game pieces with distinct abilities are not cosmetic by any reasonable definition of cosmetic. It doesn’t matter if they’re balanced and the game works without them - that’s not the point. The point is that it is bespoke game content that should be available to everyone that buys the game.
Unless I’m misunderstanding and it’s more like the Dungeon of the Endless crossover faction in Endless Legend, who are listed as a separate faction but are literally identical to one of the base factions in all but name and maybe unit models.
Yeah. It’s a different genre, but it reminds me of the mind-fuckingly stupid habit of DLC or preorder bonus or even console bonus characters. Soul Calibur 2, I’m looking straight at you, motherfucker.
In a sense, about the only thing to do in a fighting game is use a fighter’s abilities, so when some fighters are unreasonably difficult to attain, I feel distinctly shorted. . . especially in a case like MK10 where I have every expectation that popular, core characters will be “locked up” as DLC, developed during normal development time, and sold for unreasonably high prices (either as a lucrative Gold Kontent Edition preorder or as Gilded Gore DLC or whatever). It’s pretty maddening as a player.
Obviously your pawn and its abilities in a boardgame are a little under that, but I’ll admit that I have immediate lesser interest in a boardgame if I find out it was Kickstarted and there were exclusive characters/boards/cards/etc. for backers. I want the full game, too, man. Sorry I didn’t get in early to hand over cash-money and pretend you don’t have a 1 in 10 shot of folding up shop before releasing the actual game, guys.
NeverGrind is a browser-based RPG that started life as an EverQuest-alike browser game that evolved into its own thing, and is now kickstarting its way out of beta. Per the KS, it takes elements from EverQuest, Phantasy Star III and Diablo 2 along with others and comes up with a really fun game.
You can play the beta for free now at http://nevergrind.com/ to see if its up your alley. The dev posts over at Rerolled.org and seems like a good guy as well.
Alstein
3539
MKX is a different case than what I’m describing- they’re letting you buy everything, it’s just overpriced. In that case, you can wait for a sale, or a $10-20 Komplete edition. The fact that NRS is still using sub-Kaillera era netcode is also a major factor.
What I’m describing is stuff that will never become avaliable to the masses, and requires a higher tier of “purchase” than the base game.
Shantae was making DLC at over $45 level for a $15 game, some of which looked gameplay-enhancing.
Tony_M
3540
Even for Kickstarters where I personally have access to some sort of exclusive DLC, I would prefer that everyone (Kickstarter or not) get that DLC for the base purchase price. I’m backing the project because I want it to succeed. If the DLC is any good then I want everyone to have it, if its rubbish then I don’t care if everyone has it, if its absurd twinking gear (see Bioware pre-orders) then I don’t want the DLC to exist at all because it interferes with the game design.
Clanan
3541
The Myth: Journeyman KS is in it’s last day. $750k so far, which means a crapton of minis (120). And the game is fun, too! The expansions also include updated cards/rulebook and improved character progression.
I’ve been a little disappointed with some of their choices in this one - it’s certainly not the giant avalanche of additional free content that the original KS was, and a lot of those free minis are just cosmetic - alternate genders or Journeyman Level (i.e., the next power tier) versions of the heroes that have no gameplay significance. And they’re not including those extra minis for the “non-core” heroes, but rather charging $15 for addons that contain two (one Light and one Dark) Journeyman minis for a hero and the actual game materials involved with bumping that hero to the Journeyman tier (mostly some new cards). You didn’t even have to pay that much to buy the addon heroes to begin with in the first KS (and that base level had more cards and such associated with them), much less the one you got just for backing. I mean, I get that quality minis cost money, but that seems a bit out of whack, and it suggests that when they add the later tiers those additional heroes (and they are adding more over time) are going to become a rapidly more expensive proposition.
There’s apparently going to be a post-KS pledge manager addon that will be just the game materials for the additional heroes minus the higher tier minis for significantly less, so assuming that materializes that will probably be good enough for me. Not rich enough to spend that kind of money on cosmetics. And I’m still in - it looks like a bunch of cool stuff to expand a pretty neat game and they’re not shy about changing stuff that’s not working. But I do feel a bit milked.
Clanan
3543
Yeah, I definitely see where you’re coming from. To me it seems like they’re still “new” to the business side of things and are trying to be more long-term. Sort of a whiplash effect to them losing lots of $ the first time over things like shipping, replacements, etc. But yes, some of the content cost does seem excessive. I’ll probably do the minion level with the spriggan upgrade, since it’s KS-only. I put the minis to good use in D&D, so I can rationalize the cosmetic stuff… I’m hoping the modules will end up cheaper down the road on miniature market or something.
Last I heard the Spriggan was just an exclusive “skin” on a Druid class they planned to implement for everybody down the line. That said, there’s no sign of that Druid yet, so…
Edit: Also, if you think you’d want all the modules, the All In addon is probably going to be your best bet. They’ve said the modules are going to have an MSRP around $40 (because the retail version will charge for minis that are free inclusions with the KS pledge), and that’s not likely to get knocked much under the $30 they’re mostly going for at the moment. So you’d already be more than breaking even on five modules with All In and it’s at seven modules at the moment. (I don’t see the eighth listed on the SG chart and unless they keep moving on those when the pledge manager/paypal hits, I don’t see it happening.)
I’m personally going to spring for it, I think, but not until the pledge manager.
Yeah. I’m in for $6 on Myth. I’m actually on the fence whether to just sell it off or not, and I figure springing the extra ten bucks for the fixed parts would help either way.
As for the rest of it, I’m pretty disappointed with the the way everything is constructed. They obviously learned nothing from the criticisms of the first KS. Both expansion boxes contain a mini-boss of a monster type you don’t have unless you’re getting the rest of it. The stretch goals don’t have enough of the new figures to actually play the game, as anyone who’s tried playing with just the retail set knows. They’ve introduced a mechanism to hunt down Bosses as part of the sandbox Adventure mode, but perversely put those figures in the set of Modules- the opposite mode of play. If you decide to forego the actual Journeyman expansion boxes and just go all-in on the Module set, you don’t get the stretch goals, so you won’t actually have enough figures to actually play those modules.
So really, they want you to go all-in on both. That’s $250. And then the extra $40 for the upgrades to the expansion figures. With shipping that’s north of $300, for the next round of content in a game I’ve already spent $200 on that might be playable with the fixed card set.
On the flip side, I do applaud them for at least semi-acknowledging the broken state of their game and offering to fix it for cheap.
I think the reason the undead miniboss in the base box was problematic was that one of its mechanics required you to have access to undead minions. I don’t believe the game design actually requires minibosses to match the monsters on the board, even if it’s maybe narratively a little weird, provided their mechanics don’t invoke monsters of their type specifically. We can always hope that they’ll realize that.
On the other hand, that would reduce the sales hooks in you.
FWIW, most of the stuff they’re going to put out as replacement materials is available in electronic format already. If you have some way to make it accessible at or near the table (a tablet, laptop, whatever), it’s not as good as having the printed materials, especially for the cards, but you could at least see if the changes make it work for you. What bugs me is that we’re now on Kickstarter #3 and although they’ve thankfully just about finished delivering the rewards from Kickstarter #1 (the original Myth KS) before launching it (there’s a few people with outstanding issues, I think, but I am not one of them), they haven’t shipped Mercs: Recon yet (which included Myth crossover content) and we still can’t easily tell whether that first game is worth investing in. As I say, at least we have electronic materials to test with now, but back when the Recon KS hit people had barely even received the base Myth box, much less the other stuff.
I don’t think they’re trying to scam anybody. I think they genuinely have a passion for this stuff and miniatures are an expensive business, especially when they’re good minis, which these seem to be. And I imagine they need to pace these projects like this for business reasons. But it’s made supporting them more of a gamble than I like. And I keep doing it anyway, so that says something about me…
