Kohan II

1)Six very distinct races in Kohan 2, as opposed to 2 races in Kohan 1. These races vary not just in unit choice but in buildings and economics as well. Understanding the subte yet deep racial differences is a key to both playing well and enjoying the game. If one played superficially and got annoyed by surface changes from Kohan 1, then one would be missing most of the depth and quality of Kohan 2.

2)Much greater number and variety of units in Kohan 2. The total number of units in KIS and KAG combined was 66, in Kohan 2 it was 108. And the differences were quite distinct, ranging from very weak light infantry to mighty siege beasts. Also, there was a better distribution of special abilities in Kohan 2, with more types of units having special bonus powers that increase the overall utility of a company, thus making for a huge range of company combos. Again, if one simply played the game superficially and bounced off of it, one might not appreciate the broad range of unit abilities and the depth of the company combo system.

3)Dramatically improved unit AI at the regiment level. Kohan 1 was really a game of company vs company combat. Kohan 2 changed the scale so that the key battles are regiment vs regiment (there are 1 to 6 companies per regiment). With the regimental scale being key, and the six different races (you could recruit companies from different races’ cities and combine them in a regiment) you actually had greater unit variety and a wider range of matchups. Again, if one approached Kohan 2 like Kohan 1 and just watched company vs company combat without taking advantage of the regimental AI, one would be missing out on a big chunk of the game’s depth.

Those are the key changes in a positive direction IMO. They did come at some cost. First, the regimental level movement and AI means that company level flanking is less critical than it was in Kohan 1. The improved pathfinding and easier retreat controls means that it is easier to save a smashed company and that decisive battles are less decisive than in Kohan 1. However if you view things on a regimental scale rather than company scale, the game retains most of its good quality.

The other area of dispute is the change from player-choice city sites to fixed city sites. This is an area of intense debate, both systems have their merits. IMO its a bit out there to focus on that as huge negative, b/c even if you don’t like the fixed city sites, there are some advantages.

As to the issue of small map size, (which is a legitimate complaint, the default map sizes are too cramped) that is easily fixed by using a larger map. The game suggests a 512 size map for 4 to 6 players, I routinely play with 4 on a 576 map and with 6 on a 640 map. The recommended 8 player map is 702, but the fans have created downloadable 768 and 804 size random maps (the 804 in particular is gigantic). You can get these larger maps at the Awakening site I linked earlier. They run fine on modern systems and are preferred for large team games.

Bottom line: anyone who compares Kohan 2 to WarCraft 3 is IMO focusing on superficialities rather than the true game mechanics and gameplay quality of Kohan 2. Also if you find Kohan 2 to somehow be less “deep” than Kohan 1 I think one likely explanation is that you are looking at things from a Kohan 1 perspective (using a single city to build all troops, looking at the company scale instead of the regiment scale). Kohan 2 is about using different cities for different purposes, combining a variety of companies into powerful “combined arms” regiments, and having great RTS fights with almost no micromanagement. It really is deeper than KIS/KAG, with greater variety, and IMO, better battles. YMMV of course.

So is there any interest in a “Kohan Night” for QT3? Any weeknight or a weekend is fine by me with some advanced notice.

I was one of those who loved K1 and who liked K2…I think it was mostly because I played K1 to death so K2 was still Kohan and I just had enough of it by then…great games though

That sounds right but many combinations were for all intents and purposes a “must-build”, while others were virtually useless. Dual Sorceress + short Pikes? Anyone? If you were going into melee, a healer was essential. If ranged, damage+rooter were essential. That’s all the depth that i saw. I never saw a game where, for ex., light Cavalry + a ranger ever came in useful, since there were virtually no sites in the game worth raiding. Or Ranger + Archers (a logical combination), since they’re still slow, just not quite as slow in trees as before. Ect.

Or unsupported units surviving past mid game. Those 3 units of long Pikes you built to take indies? All but useless past mid game, and no way to upgrade them to something better. Sure you had the “option” of building unsupported long units, but then you always have the “option” of losing in any game. What appeared to be 100x different combinations was actually closer to about 6-8 really viable combos and a bunch of others that worked only because they were putting warm bodies in the field.

Flanking was far harder to do in Kohan 2 because it took place at least 1 full screen width away from the main battle. And because light cavalry in almost all cases sucks to the point of irrelevancy.

Oh and the Market vs. Bank thing. For a “perfectly balanced game” that still makes me sigh. Both cost the same, both provide the same amount of income even with negative resources, and positive resources are just money in the bank. Again, two options, but one is always better. Always, in every situation. You may have choices, but there is a right choice and a wrong choice.

I’m down with a Kohan 2 night. Fair warning, I will suck. Bad.

That’s cool, I suck too, so I’ll play for the other team - that way they’ll be even. :-)

I own a copy and have never played the game before. I’m willing to give it a try, assuming times match up.

So any interest in tonight, Friday night? or would a different night be better. My suggestion would be to meet up online around 6pm Pacific Time, and play some passworded games. I would suggest game name QT3, password koontz. I’m game to pop on and try - if we have newer players we can play vs computer or try various team combos.

If that doesnt work, suggest an alternative.

If you start the game up, I’ll try to drop in this evening.

I own a copy as well but have only played the demo a while ago. Like Sharpe needs another excuse to decimate us in an RTS :p

This evening is impossible for me though, but you should go ahead and play anyway. I’ll suck too bad.

Can’t make it tonight. As I have to get destroyed in Gears of War apparantly. Perhaps tomorrow night or something.

Uber necro, does anyone still play this?

I’m going through this soon, after I am done with Kohan 1, and I have to say I am actually very impressed with Kohan’s design, abstracting things like supply, the very slow pacing of combat, the lack of things that need clicking :)

Yeah, Kohan is one of the great RTSs that every RTS player should play.

I played it a few years back with @Otagan and @Otthegreat. It took a bit to get both Kohan 1 and Kohan 2 to work online though.

I’d probably fire this up if we got some players together. Someone will have to provide some info/links on how to get the multiplayer working.

It is a classic RTS IMO, one of the very best.

Kohan is great, both 1 and 2. Yeah I vaguely remember having to go through a VPN or something to get the multi-player to work.

I’d let sharpe beat up on me again - was fun the first time around and I didn’t even know sharpe from the forums back then.

I’m bouncing between this and Rise of Legends, both underappreciated games imho, but quite different.

RoL is much more micro heavy, but the city management there is imho superior.

The strangest thing is I am also playing Spellforce 3 (guess I am going through an rts spell) and can’t help but feel that mechanics wise, things have not advanced in checks notes 15 or so years.

Kohan I and II are on the very short list of RTS games I’m willing to play, since APM isn’t the key to victory. Tooth and Tail is number 1 on that list.

A slow RTS you say? I’m intrigued!

Steam offers 3 Kohans. Assuming I’ll play one, and only one, which one would you recommend (for SP)?

Kohans