LOL. Pauvre petite fille riche
I stand by my, “some of these students should be expelled,” comment. I am actually embarrassed to note this is so over the top ridiculous it sounds like it was a headline written for a fictional show.
I don’t think anyone in this thread has disagreed with the idea that those students who are found to have directly and knowingly participated should be expelled. I think the disagreement (at least from my side) was that they should be, as group, all expelled, regardless of their degree of participation or knowledge.
No worries. As mentioned I know I have my hate on for them in this case, and despite knowing it’s probably over the top, I stand by it. I’ve picked this as my, “fuck them, they should all feel justice,” moment.
There are just far, far too many rich versus not stories going on right now, especially around justice and fairness. Just today, Manafort, for one.
I’d characterize that more as fuck it, they should all feel punishment. I don’t think doing that is clearly justice.
Strip away the rich/poor part of it—do you see any similarity between this and the Dreamers type situation where some on the political right want the children of illegal immigrants to be treated no differently (i.e., deported) than those who themselves directly made the decision to illegally enter the country? For me, there’s a huge difference between someone who directly committed the act of illegal immigration (e.g., the parent) and the children who may benefit from it, but did not either knowingly commit the act or did not have a say in the decision to commit the act.
You don’t punish children for their parents’ misdeeds. That should be uncontroversial. Kids who were in on it should be expelled. If they weren’t, they’re witnesses, not perps.
Revoke the degrees is probably too much. But I 100% agree with expelling any existing students.
In all likelihood the rich parents are going to get slaps on the wrist. If you are willing to cheat and spend $500,000 or $5 million to get the kid into school. The 6 months of probation and 200 hours of community service you get is probably a small price to pay for getting your kid into a Ivy League school.
Expelling the kid and having him/her be subject to additional scrutiny in future applications is an additional from of punishment for the parents. I’d argue it is not entirely bad for the kid knowing that whatever school they do eventually go to they got in on their own.
It is not like the kids of this rich folks are going to face the challenges most college students face, Ramen, student loans, crappy apartments, and no cars and no money.
At some level, a rich kid going to Ivy league school who got C’s in high school, or the college adviser asking about your track or water polo, should raise red flags about how exactly did I get into this top school. If it doesn’t than the kid is too stupid to be going to elite school.
I do see that, but I also see a bit of the 99% issue here. I’m tired of it. This is the end of my bridge of compassion. My sister was an educator for many years before leaving, notably due to parents who thought they were privileged and pushed for special treatment for their kids.
It pushes my button, but I’m okay with that. The worst that can be said of my position here is that I’m being inconsiderate of a student who, perhaps, tried hard and did well and graduated. After their parents broke laws to get them into college.
As mentioned before I’m willing to be flexible here. So don’t take away their acceptance or degrees, but perhaps Mom and Dad pay a fine to the school which covers the entire ride for a student who doesn’t have the financial means to attend. There needs to be something besides Mom and Dad getting a slap on the wrist and the student getting to proceed as a normal student until which time they graduate or don’t.
I agree but only to extent. A kid brought to the US by their parent has very little say in their situation. Almost all college student are or will soon be legal adults. Who know how much understanding or involvement the rich kids had in the process. But again the a 16 or 17 year old student taking a SAT by himself with a proctor and being treat the same as kid with disabilities should cause the kid to wonder why I’m I been treated differently?
Paul Manafort’s wife may or may not know what her husband was doing, but she is going to lose a few of their houses and other possession as the government takes back their ill gotten gains.
Adult family members of criminals suffer. It shouldn’t matter if it is the mom of the gang member who puts her house about as collateral for her kids bond, and loses the house when he skips bail, or the kid who gets expelled from college that had no business attending.
There’s also a difference in ultimate punishment between these two examples.
Forcing the dreamers out of the country essentially annihilates their lives - they may not even speak the language of their parents’ home country.
Forcing students with fraudulent applications to reapply, or transfer to schools where they could enter on merit, is unlikely to ruin their life - its a few year set back which many deal with. I think this is preferable to both maintain the quality of the institutions’ reputation, and to provide a sufficiently large penalty as threat against future fraud.
If their parents receive jail time for defrauding competing applications, or the universities, that would also be reasonable in lieu - the point is the punishment must be meaningful to the perpetrator, who is obviously financially well off.
The Daily Show did a piece on it. I didn’t realize that some parents actually claimed their bribes to be charitable donations. That really grinds my gears!
But there’s some disagreement in some of these cases whether we’re talking about a punishment or a revocation of unearned gains, and those aren’t the same thing.
The example of parents stealing money and putting it in a trust fund for their kids isn’t a great analogy for what’s gone on here, but it does illustrate the difference between punishment and consequences. If your parents stole money and gave it to you, and they were caught, you wouldn’t get to keep the money. That’s a consequence of their actions, not a punishment of you. It would be punishing the children for the parents misdeeds if they put you in jail along with your parents.
So the question in some of these cases is whether the students have or have not met the requirements of the degree they’re earning/have earned. And that’s going to be a pretty difficult thing to ascertain and there’s a lot of room for disagreement about how colleges work (is it just passing the right classes that earn you the degree regardless of whether or not you qualified to get in?).
But the point stands that even if we agree (and I do) that children should not be punished for their parents crimes, that doesn’t necessarily mean the children won’t still have to deal with consequences. “We can’t punish the students who were unknowingly involved” does not absolutely mean the same thing as “we can’t expel or revoke degrees from students who were unknowingly involved”.
Yup. The guy who ran the whole thing had it set up so that his non-profit organization, The Key Worldwide Foundation (KWF), was the recipient of the majority of the bribery money paid out by parents. He then distributed that money through the organization to the coaches, proctors and others involved in funneling the kids to the schools disguised as “donations” made directly to the sports programs or contractor payments to KWF employees. KWF filed tax-exempt status documentation with the IRS, even detailing all the “donations”, and KWF employees issued letters to the parents claiming that their “donations” to KWF were charitable and that they received no goods or services in kind. The parents then deducted the bribes as charitable donations on their income taxes.
So, at the end of the day, it probably doesn’t matter what the FBI decides to charge all the parents with, because the IRS is coming for them, and they don’t fuck around. In fact, the more money you have, the harder the IRS comes at you, so these families legal troubles are just beginning. Hope Olivia Jade made the most out of her time at USC, because it’s going to cost her parents millions in fines, penalties and legal fees.
I don’t agree with this at all. This is bribery, pure and simple. Corruption is toxic to the rule of law, and that is why it is a serious offence. I would think a 4 year jail term for anyone knowing paying large inducements to a public official would be perfectly reasonable as a baseline in the absence of aggravating circumstances. The fact that the only people that got hurt were a few kids that ended up going to a less good school isn’t the point. Even in the absence of severe harm this is still a serious crime.
I’m much more relaxed about the kids. The ones that knowingly participated should get a fine and a criminal record, and be expelled if they are still in the school. The ones where we can’t prove that they knew, why destroy their lives? I bet for every one who is a social media influencer there are several who actually need that degree for what they want to do. Just the fact that it is known that they were involved enough is punishment enough IMO.
I agree. Tax Fraud -> Club Fed, no?
Actually the guy on Cavuto had no problem with them being charged with a crime. But he also saw no way they were going to jail, which I think is a realistic attitude of what will happen.
A few of my friend have shared this on FB today. It conforms to my preconceived biases, so I believe it.
She started losing me at “sit down, babies” and lost me for good at “McGloatyface.” That glib tone is such a turn-off.