Well, I’d never played a DoTA before and I would just say that it’s pretty tough to learn (to be fair I gave a grand total of about 7 hours spent playing PC games in my life prior to LoL). It’s also loads of fun though, and probably easier to pick up if the concept of “hotkeys” isn’t completely foriegn to you…

You can definitely create a password protected room and add enough bots to fill out any players you are missing on either side. A good option if you just want to hang with friends and avoid the fray.

You’ll need to decide between 3v3 and 5v5 modes, obviously not ideal for a 4-man group. Regardless, playing vs. bots is a good option to start learning the game and mess around with friends.

PVP is where the heart of the game is, IMO. I don’t think highly of the general LoL community but there’s a ton of fun to be had as long as you and your friends have a thick skin.

What do you need thick skin for? /ignore all, now it doesn’t matter what your skin is like.

If you mean athletes in team games: because they don’t continually change teams throughout the season.

Win/loss is how you rank a team, not how you detrmine the quality of an individual player.
Look, tell me what point you stop agreeing:

  1. You and chauster each play 100 games against random opponents
  2. Chauster is better than you
  3. Chauster will win more games than you
  4. Chauster is better than you and has more wins than you
  5. You can reliably determine relative skill of any two players with this method.

As I said the system does not fail the elites it fails everyone else.

[Warning, Wall of Text ™]
First I apologise for the ‘e-peen’ comment. I blame tiredness and bad mood after losing. ;-)

On the topic - if you want to realistically measure player skill, you would optimally find metrics for all relevant attributes. For some (K/D/A, for example) this is easy. For others -let’s say leadership- it is probably not possible. If you have all metrics, you use them for some regression modelling using the existent data on played games, ending up with a good formula determining player skill. Important about this is that the model of course gets better with more included and actually relevant variables. Simplifying the model will make it worse. Important in this is to keep in mind the interdependence of different variables.

Of course, that does not sound feasible. But at least a simple model with a handful of variables could already have enough descriptive power to be useful. However, I highly doubt that only one metric (K/D/A) is in any way descriptive enough. Therefore the examples mentioned above. Another example - during laning, blue team is slightly worse overall than purple Come ganking phase, I start to talk to my team, organise ganks etc. Since blue player A plays Soraka, he gets assists and some deaths. However, the blue Annie (who lost her lane badly, not dying but with 50 cs less than her opponent) thanks to repeated 5 vs. 3, 2, 1 fights racks up the kills. Confident in her abilities she wanders of a few times, leading to tower losses since she was absent. Due to Soraka being convincing Annies stops and blue team wins. If we only include Win/Loss and K/D/A, Annie as a bursty damage dealer most likely gets a higher bonus than Soraka - how would that make sense ? (For other examples see my previous post).
My point - including more variables than W/L only makes sense if we go beyond K/D/A, which incidentally makes the whole model less than transparent from a players viewpoint.

Regarding a pure Win/Loss-model, as implemented atm - Winning is derived from all possible metrics by definition, since it represents the second side of the model equation, so to speak, and is the result of all other factors. Therefore, any model including the W/L metric, but adding only one more stat basically only makes sense if the one added stat is by far the most important metric determining W/L, because it inflates its influence beyond that of other, possibly at least as important factors. As I see it, atm the only reason to elevate K/D/A importance like this without further data for support is based on emotion and not fact. Getting a lot of kills makes you feel like you are the sole reason for winning, and tends to be seen of highly inflated importance. In reality however, the really clever and capable leader might be more important (this being a team-based strategic game, not 1v1 Quake). Yes, K/D/A certainly is important, but not to the extend that it overshadows everything else. This emotional inflation of value is the reason I’d prefer it to not be displayed, actually, since it detracts from team-oriented play.

Regarding the Elo-reality - if you would pressure me, I would admit that I’d love to get my hands on a nice database of statistics for recent games (a few hundred thousand or so should do) and have a go at it. Or even better, someone who has the time and experience I lack at modelling does, and derives a good equation. Since this is not going to happen, W/L-Elo seem the best alternative to me, since it is by default the one most important metric since it explains itself completely. Which is not true for any other metric we can think of. And it can actually be measured very easily.

Regarding the “more to do with having fewer “average” games have extreme outliers who go 1/12/3 offset by players going 12/1/12” - sorry, that already rests on the assumption that K/D/A is the single metric determining a players impact on the game outcome, which I refute. And have provided examples falsifying this assumption. (The reason it rests on this assumption is simply that in any other case, you skew your outcome due to inflated importance of K/D/A and omission of other factors of similar importance, as stated above. By definition you would be moving away from “averaging”, not toward it).

Edited to add: Of course the importance of K/D/A can be modified using a constant factor, but either this is completely arbitrary or based on data. If it is based on data, it should in any case involve additional variables, since again, modelling only based on K/D/A inflates it’s importance in players minds even more and skews your results.

TL;DR if you want to add K/D/A to Elo, at least do it right - add multiple metrics and do some mathematical modelling. Otherwise don’t bother, please. Singling out K/D/A to me seems based primarily on emotion, and would only serve to raise it’s emotion-based impact even more. Finally, raising the emotion-based impact of K/D/A is likely to have a detrimental effect on teamplay and might even hurt appropriateness of the Elo-rating as measure of overall player ability.

Ah, but you were in a game and I didn’t want to disturb :)

Yes. And if you feel like it, join us on one of the mumble-servers.

I’d say replace “Chauster” with “Random player who is better than you” and you still have the same point, but without the “elites” aspect.

But what I am saying is that is NOT true. If ELO was working my games should be close good games right? They are not, they are blowouts one way or the other far more often than they are close good games.

No. This is not how it works. Elo is a statistical system. It cannot readily predict outcomes of single games - there are too many unknowns. Let’s say Chauster on a specific day has won the lottery, so he is very distracted and loses. Elo cannot predict that. But if you play enough games, Elo will approach your actual skill in comparison with others, with lottery-day games being outliers.
Think of it as a series of dice throws - 3-6, Chauster wins. However, that does not mean that you never role a 1 or 2. Chequers reasoning is perfectly sound - in the long run Chauster wins a lot more than you do. And yes, this even works for blowouts. Take a hundred-sided die, and Chauster wins from 40-100. Again, in the long run he will win more often than you, and most throws will not be close to the magic 30-50 that represents a close match, so to speak. However, large percentages of blowouts can indicate that the outcome is determined by a number of highly volatile variables, for example. Which will lead to Elo being slower in adjustment, most likely. But there are other possibilities.

Edit: And of course this works the same for a not-Chauster-but-better player who for example wins from 45-100 - he will win more games, you will presumably be similar in Elo at the beginning, there will be many “blowouts”. In the long run Elo will separate you.

Those highly volatile variables being other players? I’m not even talking about my play here, I’ve seen better players at 800 than I have at 1300. Objectively better, better K/D/A, they ward, they team for Dragon etc. It’s a team game using a rating system designed for two player games, it works for the edges in LoL but fails the middle.

That is worthwhile to argue about, I think. In my opinion, the team composition in terms of players is somewhat unreliable. Also, I see a problem with blind pick in normal games, since this is not only dependent on skill, but also luck. In ranked (with draw mode) this of course does not matter. Also, I am suspicious about the way Elo is implemented - I read up a bit on the system the last few months (caveat - I am not a mathematician or statistician, I just use the stuff ;-). Elo - as any manmade thing- is not perfect. One interesting thing is that it depends on a so called K-value, which influences how plastic it is in reaction to single games. Basically, Elo can be tuned to between volatile (reacting to game outcomes fast, rapidly approaching its target but never being stable), or stoic (slow changes overall). In the extremes Elo will either be fluctuating to wildly to be useful, or not react fast enough, in both cases misrepresenting the playerbase. Apparently K-values differ between chess rating agencies, and have in some cases been readjusted in the past. I can’t help but wonder if Riot chose a good K-value. In the end only they can find out, however.

Regarding the “made for 1v1 games, not applicable for team games” I disagree. This IMO should mainly influence the speed of the Elo adjustment, not the general applicability. Frankly, from a single players viewpoint teammates “only” represent additional random factors, similar to lottery-win-days after all. Which means that the system is more volatile, so trends will be harder (but not impossible) to determine. In short, in the long run a good player will still win more games than a bad player, even with random draw of teammates.

There is however one fun thing about this - reading LoL webpages and Elo discussions it seems most people are not aware of the “in the long run” property of Elo. Consider “Elo hell” - of course players can be underrated for a long stretch (let’s say 30 games) due to bad luck in the team-mate draw, sinking all the time ! It is just a very rare event, since long stretches like this are very unlikely. But in a 15 Mio. playerbase, some people will be those outliers ! However, this will be very rare, and the overwhelming majority of people thinking they are in Elo hell will only kid themselves about their abilities, and are actually where they belong. Conversely, there are just as many players on a lucky streak (Elo heaven ?), but they will of course not complain. ;-) {Frankly, I think I am there, in a small way - overrated at slightly above 1400 after 10 games ;-)}.

Just realized that I should stop writing - man, far to verbose ! Sorry, am currently writing a lot for my job, so I tend to procrastinate, and to be excessive.

No kidding.

You should hear me talk atm. Fun !

Just had a really fun game as Udyr. On our team: Udyr (duh), Ashe, Taric, Singed, Poppy. On their team, Trundle, Blitz, Jax, Yi and Ryze. The game swung back and forth for 50 minutes before our tower advantage and a rolling team fight went in our favor.

And the team fights! With so much beef they lasted forever and sprawled across the map. It was crazy fun.

Worried about all the tanks I took Madreds, Wits, Malady, Phage + Giant’s belt and boots at game end. I’m not convinced this worked out at all. Of course, there’s some synergy there, but Ryze could burn me down in a from full to about 20% in a single burn through of his powers. I should probably have stopped at Madreds and Wits (or anything else, perhaps more damage or more speed) and gone BV and perhaps sunfire ASAP… Oh well, we won in the end.

So I’ve been seeing a lot more of Cass in my ranked games… when I haven’t seen her played in months. AND - she is doing extremely well.

Are these dedicated Cass players that are kicking ass, or has something changed? Is it because bans are shifting away from tanks and onto Annie, and thus an on demand stun Mage is bubbling up to the surface?

/intrigued

~C~

I think she is kind of hard to use which is why you don’t see her often, but as far as i know nothing changed.

Ummm…If all you are interested in is a broad, general, kinda-sorta statitstic this is fine. Given how nutty LoL players seem to be, I kinda suspect they want something with some real accuracy.