League of Legends: Official Thread

guppy · 2011-09-02T10:49:14.000Z

Mostly you’re in the right. If your team has the line pushed up to the enemy tower nonstop, ganking is usually going to be a waste of time. Tell them to let the creep wave push.

Ideally, yes, you’d like the enemy laners damaged to make it more likely that you secure a kill, but a “successful” gank doesn’t necessarily have to result in a kill. Forcing the enemy out of lane, forcing them to burn Flash, forcing them to be extremely defensive and not farm, you can count all of those as “success.” In some cases you can even perform “defensive” ganks for a lane where the enemy is hyper pushy and your lane can’t deal with it, to force them to back off and give your guys some breathing room.

Also, try not to spend ALL your time ganking – you need to keep jungling so you don’t fall behind the level or power curve, and you’ll want to be attempting to control dragon and warding some, and counterjungling if possible.

bluemax · 2011-09-02T10:49:26.000Z

idrisz:

you don’t need build late game nocturne with atmas/trinity/warmog, just get ghost blade, and you can basically win the game almost single-handily if you get a solo lane.

He’s one of the best junglers in the game right now, I just think that laning with him is a waste. I know it works for you, but I don’t think that is universally true.

AtMogs on almost any melee hero is kind of necessary in low elo solo queue where you can’t rely on your teammates.

I do agree that he needs GhostBlade for blowing up carries.

SlyFrog:

Let’s talk briefly about one aspect of jungling - the gank by the jungler.

I’ve been trying to be better about swinging over to different lanes to help by ganking even before level six.

But so often I look around and my team has done absolutely no damage to the opposition. Worse, they often have the creeps pushed to the midway point or even up to the opposition’s tower.

Is it unreasonable to basically tell your teammates to do some harassing/poking and actually damage their opponents and then I’ll come gank?

It just seems like a waste of time (and time is both XP and gold) for a jungler to set up to gank someone at the midpoint of a lane when you know they’re just going to run back under their tower with 1/4 of their health missing (because they started at 100%).

I think it depends heavily on who you’re jungling as, who you’re trying to gank, and who your teammate is and what summoner spells everyone has.

Obviously the more pushed a lane is towards the other teams tower, the harder the gank will be to pull off.

espressojim · 2011-09-02T12:10:31.000Z

Pogo:

Nocturne’s a solid champion that still gets picked up in high ranking play. I think espressojim uses him a lot in ranked play for jungling. For regular games you might get bitched at for taking nocturne into a lane, however, since he’s such a strong jungler.

I do indeed play noct a fair bit in jungle. He and GP are my two main picks at this point, as I feel like I can do a bit of carrying with both if need be (and you can use the same runes/masteries on both!) The main thing to realized about noct is that he’s about as paper thin as he looks - survivability is an issue, so think about building up defenses as well as offense.

I usually get a wriggles, mercs, and a ghostblade. After that, it’s tanky time - which in a long enough game is a banshee’s, warmogs, and atmas, but in a less long game might be a quick Heart of Gold before I finish my ghostblade and a negatron cloak.

idriz:

you don’t need build late game nocturne with atmas/trinity/warmog, just get ghost blade, and you can basically win the game almost single-handily if you get a solo lane.

I agree on ghost blade, as it has a huge boost on your damage (and that’s why it’s my first real item) - armor pen and the active synergize well with your Q.

espressojim · 2011-09-02T12:16:29.000Z

AaronSofaer:

Instalock jungle Taric. Let’s see how he does.

I’ve seen McK jungle taric to great effect. That jungle taric stunning / shattering someone who wasn’t ready can wreck some face.

That said, I’ve seen jungle soraka gank too - healing ganks are the new meta - just run out, heal your ally, then run away. Too gud.

MarinusWA · 2011-09-02T12:49:59.000Z

Just had a game with a jungle Morgana.

She got murdered by enemy jungle WW within three minutes. Good fun.

Hanacker · 2011-09-02T13:18:54.000Z

Jungle Morgana used to be decent before they buffed jungle mobs, iirc. Same time that jungle Akali worked. Her margin for error was really small for the first few levels, though.

maxle · 2011-09-02T13:34:59.000Z

SlyFrog:

Is it unreasonable to basically tell your teammates to do some harassing/poking and actually damage their opponents and then I’ll come gank?

Yes. It’s not actually particularly difficult to kill full health champions, particularly at low levels, even more so when it’s 2v1 or 3v2. It helps if you and your teammates have any cc at all, of course, but a gank at the mid point of a lane is a perfectly fine idea.

Consider coming into lane via the tower and sitting in the bushes for a bit while the lane pushes to you. Hilarity ensues if there’s a face check.

Pogo · 2011-09-02T13:39:14.000Z

It’s not just about the gank. It’s about your presence. Even forcing them to recall to base reduces their exp and creep score. It makes them question any aggressiveness they may have if they end up pushing your ally’s lane.

The only unsuccessful gank is the one that you (or other teammates) die trying to do.

maxle · 2011-09-02T13:41:16.000Z

Well, or the one where you’re ganking a lane that doesn’t need help while a lane that does, y’know, dies.

Pogo · 2011-09-02T13:43:04.000Z

True, you also have to remember that when the enemy team spots you on the other side of the map, they can take more free reign to kill that lane or have their own gank on the other side of the map.

SlyFrog · 2011-09-02T14:00:25.000Z

Pogo:

It’s not just about the gank. It’s about your presence. Even forcing them to recall to base reduces their exp and creep score. It makes them question any aggressiveness they may have if they end up pushing your ally’s lane.

The only unsuccessful gank is the one that you (or other teammates) die trying to do.

Yeah, that’s what I’ve been telling myself. But then I realize that I just wasted time setting up for a gank that accomplishes little beyond pushing the enemy under his tower for a couple of seconds. Time which could have been used to continue to build XP and gold in jungle.

So I’m not so sure. I have definitely swung over and helped out just to ease the pressure on a hard pressed lane. But I’m starting to change my opinion on ganking full health lanes just to show presence or for other seeming strategic advantages that don’t really seem to turn out to be strategic advantages.

I have not found (unlike a previous poster) that it is easy to kill full health opponents prior to level 6. Unless they’re painfully stupid, but then in that case, it’s not really the gank, it’s the playing stupid opponents. We should all be so lucky to face stupid opponents over and over.

maxle · 2011-09-02T14:42:07.000Z

They don’t have to be stupid, though that helps. Taric, Janna, and Alistair are supports you see a lot of who are insanely good at facilitating murder, particularly when paired with Ashe or Cait or, sometimes, Vayne and the lane they’re in can typically take an opponent down from full to fountain on its own with chained cc. So if you’re there to make it a 3v2? That should be a kill.

As for top champs? Lee has a blink and a slow. Irelia has a blink and slow/stun, renekton has a gap closer and a stun, Jarvan has a knockup and a slow and a hilarious ult (your solo really ought to reach six before you do), Rumble has a slow that he can use twice and an ult that slows, Jax has a blink and stun (which he can proc before hand by aggroing minions), Udyr has a speed boost and a stun, Xin has a blink and knockup, Nasus has an unbelievably annoying slow, Galio can slow the enemy while speeding himself and his allies and can also taunt at six, Tryndamere slows people who try to run away, and so forth, and so on. These guys are typically hard to run away from, and if you’re there to make it 2v1, well, they have to run.

Now factor in exhaust.

So okay, revise my previous statement to read it’s really easy to kill full health people if you or your allies have cc. Which you should. If you don’t, well, that probably changes things.

inkai · 2011-09-02T15:26:21.000Z

Gah, owing a sivir with akali on mid, outzoned her and outcreeped her 5 to 1.
But the rest of my team was doing their best feeding so even with all that money i couldn’t even help win teamfights.
Did piss off their Jax to no end though.

SlyFrog · 2011-09-02T16:04:36.000Z

maxle:

They don’t have to be stupid, though that helps. Taric, Janna, and Alistair are supports you see a lot of who are insanely good at facilitating murder, particularly when paired with Ashe or Cait or, sometimes, Vayne and the lane they’re in can typically take an opponent down from full to fountain on its own with chained cc. So if you’re there to make it a 3v2? That should be a kill.

As for top champs? Lee has a blink and a slow. Irelia has a blink and slow/stun, renekton has a gap closer and a stun, Jarvan has a knockup and a slow and a hilarious ult (your solo really ought to reach six before you do), Rumble has a slow that he can use twice and an ult that slows, Jax has a blink and stun (which he can proc before hand by aggroing minions), Udyr has a speed boost and a stun, Xin has a blink and knockup, Nasus has an unbelievably annoying slow, Galio can slow the enemy while speeding himself and his allies and can also taunt at six, Tryndamere slows people who try to run away, and so forth, and so on. These guys are typically hard to run away from, and if you’re there to make it 2v1, well, they have to run.

Now factor in exhaust.

So okay, revise my previous statement to read it’s really easy to kill full health people if you or your allies have cc. Which you should. If you don’t, well, that probably changes things.

Fair points. It really is champion dependent, and I agree that if you’re ganking a lane where your teammate is Xin, Singed, Veigar, etc. you’ve got a lot better chance of doing something even when the gankee is at fuller health.

Quitch · 2011-09-02T16:08:30.000Z

How close do you need to be to creeps to get XP from them dying?

Calistas · 2011-09-03T03:35:04.000Z

Elo hell is:

Tryndamere: Every single one is awful. Two in a row in two games have done nothing but feed. The most recent went 2/13/5.
3/16/12 Singed. With heal. Awesome.
Temo “I’m going AP”, when all he went was a bit of AP and a lot of AS.

Why do I bother?

maxle · 2011-09-03T04:00:08.000Z

Janna free week is the worst thing ever. Free Sin is the second worst thing ever.

Quitch · 2011-09-03T05:13:48.000Z

But sometimes those people end up on the enemy team and I get to do that thing you do so rarely as Morgana: flash into a retreating enemy team and unleash your ultimate on all five of them. Glorious :)

chequers · 2011-09-03T06:59:56.000Z

maxle:

Janna free week is the worst thing ever. Free Sin is the second worst thing ever.

There’s a hard-to-play-but-loved champ in every second free champ rotation.

Calistas · 2011-09-03T07:07:52.000Z

Yes Q, but I haven’t had a game like that in memory. Last time I came close someone dropped or quit and we failed.

What was particularly galling is that as Alistar I was, for a time, doing the best on the team with more kills and more assists (ok, so a couple were headbutt KS’s, but even so). If I had tried to carry we would have done even worse. The enemy team were beefy enough to shrug off Akali, we had AD up the wazoo already (or I would have tried for Jarvan or Irelia), Morde was banned… so it came down to me living through all team fights until the very end when I fell as full health Singed and/or Udyr ran for the hills. They usually started running at the first death. Gah.

Kinda frustrating. Bloody game lasted 50 minutes too.