5821

Last hitting is a skill that it takes time to cultivate. Calistas is right; watch streams and practice. And there is nothing wrong with boosting AD to help with it. Just recognize the impact of such a strategy (the more AD you take at the beginning, the better LW gets as the game goes on). Do you frequently have to share a lane with someone else who is farming? That’s a whole additional layer of complexity.

5822

If she didn’t have her Peacemaker no one would complain about her crazy laning power.

I look forward to your 4 PD Caitlyn! Post screenshots!

5823

If she didn’t have auto attack great range, a quality passive that synergizes with attacking people, nobody would complain about her laning power.

If her cupcakes weren’t so delicious, people wouldn’t complain about her laning power.

Her cupcakes are better than yours.

I look forward to your 4 PD Caitlyn! Post screenshots!

Just 3, I think. For the other two non boot/defense items I’m going to build 2 gunblades just to rub your face in the nerf.

5824

Yeah, I realized very early on that Vampiric Scepter does jackshit early on. Even building Bloodthirster early, I saved for the 1600 sword and then bought the Vampiric Scepter.

That is another nice aspect of going Infinity Edge first, though. You can buy that first damage add subcomponent 6-700 gold earlier than if you are starting with Bloodthirster.

I like lifesteal in fights, sure, but where I really find it has value is when you were in a fight (generally mid-game or later) and got dinged up a bit. Step quickly into the jungle, take out a creep camp, and voila, full health. I like it more for the ability to make sure I’m joining the average team fight at full health, but not having to constantly pop back to base to do that. In my limited experience, mid-to-late game, lifesteal works far better for that than health regeneration items (though now that I think about that, I need to experiment a little more with health regen items).

5825

In general, it is a good idea to construct your lanes so that lane partners are not competing for farm. This is one of the reasons that the current popular metagames are what they are: top and mid get solo lanes, bottom gets a babysitter who doesn’t need money, and all of those lanes can come out of the laning phase able to obliterate someone. This is not always possible in shitter-level pub play.

Sounds like someone hasn’t seen the power of Wayne’s Boots of Mobility + five Phantom Dancer Sion (patent pending).

For serious, though, we’re mostly talking about post laning phase. Although a good Caitlyn should, if possible, try to use her passive to shoot you in the face.

5826

You mean rub your own face in the nerf. Also, :( .

5827

I’m seeing Pantheons with Gunblades in Dom.

5828

So, sometimes you play a character and hate them. Sometimes you play a character and love them. And then sometimes you play a character and realize that your brain and the character just don’t work the same way.

I do not understand Amumu. I’m not saying Amumu is bad, because I’ve seen really dominating Amumu players out there. I’m just saying, I realized at one point in the game I literally had no idea what to do with him. Attacking other champions was clearly a ludicrous proposition. Farming seemed hopless. I eventually just jungled a bit, but I still ended the game severely underleveled. The game ended with everyone else in the 17-18 range and I was at 12, 13.

Yes, I read the character sheet thing. I suppose I could go read an Amumu guide at Solomid and do better. But it was just such a weird experience playing him the first time, and just feeling completely confused as to what to even try. I ended up 3/1/11, just because I played very conservatively. But man…back to Cait. Shooting people in the face is something I can understand.

5829

Amumu is a jungler.

That said, way back when (looong before EU meta babysit lanes had made their way across the ocean) I had quite a bit of success running mumu in a duo lane. Partner choice was important; taric was hilarious, as we could double stun and put out some decent damage, then disengage, heal up, and do it again until the enemy were low enough that they actually died.

Not that I’m suggesting anyone should actually do that.

5830

I do jungle with characters a bit, but usually later, when it’s an easy way to pick up some extra cash to finish expensive items or to take pressure off a lane so a farm dependent partner and I aren’t competing, or to be a little closer to the middle lane to support fights there but still making some money. But I never jungle before, say, level 7 or maybe the first or second turret being destroyed, it just feels too slow and damaging.

So what makes a character a jungler? vs a not jungler? How do you jungle in the very early game when you’re really weak?

5831

If you can level faster in the jungle then in a duo lane (See: Amumu) or you can pull off gank attacks from the jungle (See: Shaco), and you can actually… you know… kill jungle creeps without dieing or running out of mana before you can solo blue, then you are a jungler. You jungle with Amumu, specifically, by getting a little help with a leash and maybe a few auto-attacks, not to mention some very close monitoring of the minimap by the nearby lanes incase you’re getting ganked, as amumu is known to be pretty weak by the end of the Blue Golem.

Here’s the current (as of Graves patch) tier list, which should be useful:

Tier 1 – Udyr, Lee Sin, Trundle, Nocturne, Fiddlesticks, Cho Gath, Skarner
Tier 2 – Warwick, Riven, Shaco, Jarvan, Nunu, Xin Zhao, Amumu, Gangplank, Maokai,
Tier 3 – Master Yi, Olaf, Malphite, Tryndamere, Shen, Yorick, Rammus, Gragas
Tier 4 – Alistar, Akali, Graves, Sion, Galio, Irelia, Kayle, Renekton, Soraka, Nasus
Tier 5 – Mordekaiser, Karthus, Pantheon, Taric, Wukong, Jax, Evelynn, Orianna, Talon

Tier 1 – The best at what they do. Some are the purist of
control junglers or the fiercest of gankers and some are versatile enough to do
both. Whatever the case these are the best in terms of jungling – they far and
beyond exceed several or all aspects of jungling and have an indisputable
strength about them.

Tier 2 – These junglers are the strongest after the gods. They usually excel
at most of the aspects of jungling and are far and beyond in one or two. They
have fewer weaknesses than most other junglers and may have a niche ability
unique to them. When you want to excel at jungling – you come to these first.

Tier 3- These junglers are very similar to Tier 2 heroes. They are so
similar that they’re basically interchangeable and are very capable of
competing with tier 2 junglers. The only reason they are in a separate bracket
is due to them being not as well rounded or someone above them is their
superior mirror. Also for organization purposes.

Tier 4- These junglers are weaker than the other junglers either due to
naturally just not being suitable for the jungle or having to alter their
optimal builds in order to jungle successfully. At the same time there are
others above who are simply miles better and they bring nothing really unique
to jungling. They’re usually prone to being dominated by stronger junglers.

Tier 5- A special tier graded differently than the others. The junglers here
CAN jungle but they usually have to impact their standard builds in interesting
ways in order to successfully do so. Either the impact is minor, but
noticeable, or major and could affect them later into the game. Placement is
also a bit wishy washy.

Alright let’s explain a few things
Warwick – He’s just not keeping up with the rest of the junglers who can gank early,
pull off new crazy routes and have new mechanics that make them stand out. Poor
guy.

Maokai – I overrated him honestly. Still really strong but
not as high as I had put him.

Shaco – as much as I personally hate shaco his small buffs
and fixes have made him a terror again. Whether or not he actually helps your
team win later or the fact that he’s easy to counter a team is not being
accounted for here. As a pure jungler – he’s really difficult to deal with, can
push out really fast ganks and brutal ganks and can control the map like a
monster moreso now that his boxes don’t backfire.

Soraka – just for lulz she’s in there. Works though but just
for giggles.

Skarner – He was one of the faster junglers before he got
buffed but he could not utilize his speed without assistance or simply running
out of juice. He seemed like a strong invader but this issue would keep him from
realizing that. He could snowball but farm his jungle was all he could do.

Skarner’s mana costs were reduced and they increased his
sustainability with mana increase and E healing change. Those changes broke all
the barriers that kept him from utilizing his god speed and his incredible
invasion. Skarner now gets to run around and farm both jungles like a beast
while slapping around the enemy jungler if they confront. He can disengage and
re engage like a beast and god forbid if a blue buffed skarner decides to make
your jungle his home. His early game is still weak but he snowballs incredibly
fast he’ll outpace most junglers. He is so incredibly sustained that you’ll
rarely be out of juice before you’re done with a full clear.

His ganking is still supremely weak but once he hits level 6
his ganks reach god status. Level 6 ganking is amongst the best atm. It can be
said that it is THE BEST level 6 gank amongst the junglers since, while Warwick’s ultimate can
close the gap, Skarner can drag his opponent to a much more preferred spot for
him and his team buying them more free damage.

I may be calling his tier 1 too early but from the looks of
it – he’s a super strong control jungler that can be considered Warwick v2.

Riven – I had said she had a lot of potential and people are
beginning to find it. She can pull off multiple low level ganks with ease and
she packs so much damage across the game. Unlike Lee Sin she does not need to
hit any skillshots in order to close the gap and get into the fight. While Lee
Sin covers more distance and is faster, Riven’s mobility has the advantage of
control and self reliance. She has the power to engage and disengage very
easily (important for invasions) and can deal with multiple foes if needed. She
can also avoid wriggles lantern if need be. She’s a slightly weaker Lee Sin as
far as I can tell.

Jarvan – Despite not being a top lane goliath like before
he’s still a strong jungler. I thought he was a lot weaker than before but
honestly he’s relatively the same. He suffered a hit in most areas sure but
he’s still a beastly ganker with an incredible array of paths and a wonderful
transitioning. Still one of the top junglers imo and I’m starting to run him in
my teams again.

Mordekaiser – Shield nerf was a slap to the balls

Rammus – I adopted Atlanta’s
Rammus build after seeing it in action and it has helped remedy some of the
weaknesses. I want to give it more time before I say anything more – but DPS
Rammus has been rather good so far.

New Champion Time

Graves – in short, he’s not
a viable jungle pick but he’s not going to break your team. I’d use him just
for lulz in a normal game when I still want a shot at winning. Just average
across the board with weaknesses in many areas.

5832

With the right runes and masteries. Depending on the champ, those can make or break your jungling. IIRC, Amumu is very rune/mastery dependent.

5833

Thanks for the replies!

5834

A bit more info.

Virtually anyone can jungle. Whether someone is considered a jungler, however, is based on three metrics:

  1. How fast can I clear the jungle? You need to be able to gank early enough to be a threat – one of your jobs is to keep enemy laners from getting too aggressive – and you need to make sure you keep up with the level/gold curve enough to stay relevant.

  2. How safely can I clear the jungle? This includes threats from both the neutral creeps and the enemy team/(counter)jungler.

  3. How effective are my ganks? In most cases this means CC of some kind – at least a slow, preferably a stun or knockup/knockback. If you can do significant damage at the same time, so much the better. Mordekaiser clears the jungle very quickly and easily – or at least he used to, I don’t know if this is still true because no one jungles with him – but has basically nothing to help him gank except walking out and doing a little damage, so he’s not a jungler.

Advanced jungling also involves things like controlling dragon, and you should be warding and counterwarding when possible.

As mx says, many junglers need runes to be able to clear the jungle at a reasonable pace with reasonable safety. Some of them (Olaf, e.g.) jungle at low health even with the right runes and masteries.

The standard jungle start involves cloth armor and five health pots – take less damage from the creeps, pop the pots as you start to take damage. Some junglers can do different starts, like a vampiric scepter. It is very common to start jungling at golem (blue buff) because this provides mana (and CDR) for you to spam your skills for the rest of the enemy camps, but this is also considered predictable and risky. Some junglers pretty much need to start at blue to have any chance at efficient jungling – Amumu is one – so if you’re starting there it is common to have your team guard you til you know you’re safe in case the enemy tries to fight you there. It is also common to have your teammate “leash” blue buff, i.e., hit him so that he chases after that teammate for a bit so you have time to get some free damage without him hitting you. This is of benefit to anyone, but especially junglers with weak starts like Udyr and Olaf. If your jungler does not require starting with blue (Nunu, e.g.) it is common to start elsewhere to reduce the risk of ganks.

When jungling, you will often start with different skills than you might choose in lane. Jungling with Shaco means taking Jack-In-The-Box at level 1 and planting 4 or 5 boxes underneath where golem will spawn, whereas you might want a different skill at level 1 in lane. Jungling with Warwick means taking his buff skill at level 1, whereas you’d probably start with his nuke if you were laning.

One important thing to note: it is considered “dumb” to play many junglers in lane. For example, an Olaf in lane is usually considered the mark of a bad player, and you should be able to shut him down since he has little lane presence. However, he still has skills, autoattacks, etc., and if you allow him to farm or kill you, he will still end up just as farmed and dangerous at the end, so don’t just assume he will never be a threat.

5835

I don’t know. This sounds like the correct result.

One of the things that I found (again, coming from a terrible ELO level player, so bear that in mind), is that a lot of times people push too hard. By that, I don’t mean not last hitting and pushing the lane, I mean that there is this compulsion to feel like you’re racking up early kills or not earning your keep. I certain thought that way at first (and still occasionally lapse into it).

Particularly with characters like Rammus and Amumu, where I kept thinking, “They’re tanky, so I should be able to go mix it up early with Xin, I might not do much damage but I’m really survivable.”

But my finding has been that characters like Rammus and Amumu are surprisingly fragile early. You have to nurse them, maybe get a gold per five item or two on them (Philostone and Heart of Gold being the most obvious for me). Then you start to get some gear and levels and discover that there is some turning point that you can’t exactly define when you just start to become an indestructible terror.

Realize as well with Amumu that probably 50% or more of why he is so “good” is because his ult in particular utterly terrifies people. I’m willing to bet that most people who ban him, if asked, would pretty much saying they’re banning his ult.

5836

I jungled morgana yesterday. Probably a bit easier to pull off than jungle veigar, but still not something I’d strongly recommend.

5837

A funny thing about this is that these days maybe about half the time someone shows up in lane with a jungler everyone goes “Haha what a tard!” Then that stupid laning jungler rapes everyone in the ear so hard their brains run out their nose. But it is still considered stupid to lane with that champ even though someone just kicked ass doing it.

5838

That’s because ganks are less about who is doing the gank as it is the situation for the gank, and how unprepared the opponent is to be ganked.

5839

Working against bad players /= a factor that makes something a viable strategy.

5840

That’s because a “bad” laner is bad because they are better in the jungle and/or ganking, and/or have little to no lane presence. It doesn’t mean that they don’t still have their abilities and stats. Amumu may have no lane presence to speak of, but he can still stun you and he and his lanemate can still kick the shit out of you if you pretend that his presence in your lane means you can have shit positioning and overextend.