Ok, I’ll play this game. Please list what advantages you think you’ll gain by putting 2 AP’s mid (I mean I assume we are talking 2 APs, if not tell me that too) and I’ll do my best to tell you what disadvantages it brings about and we’ll see where it leads to?
Isn’t that backward and why you’d rather have two bottom than mid? It’s a much shorter run back to your tower from mid than top or bottom.
I’m not talking about theorizing I’m talking about experimenting and doing. I know what the theory says, I also know what I’ve seen and what others have also apparently seen but we have an admittedly low data set. I also think it would be fun to try and force a meta on the game, even if it isn’t optimal.
Yes you are right I wrote wrong, my bad :)
We did AD+Support mid (AP top and Tank bottom) for a bit but found it generally inferior to running them bot for a number of reasons. Never tried double AP mid but I’d imagine that the same reasons would apply against it and a number of others aswell.
But it’s a damn game! I can definitely get behind trying something fun and different for teh lulz. Double jungle ftw ;)
guppy
6146
Yes, the average terrible QT3 play will definitely succeed in popularizing a new meta
EDIT: one big reason not to run two AP mids – they both need farm, either both wind up halfassed or one gets fat and the other doesn’t, so you may as well have had them in different places and not crippled XP gain
I’m up for testing weird stuff. How about AP mid with strong CC plus early game AD carry? Like Veigar plus cait.
Talk to jim about Veigar in a duo-lane. He has first hand experience (and as much as I mock him, it’s something I could come around to trying).
The games I played with two mid didn’t care about the fancy “AD must go with support” meta. I forget what the others were but one was Kog’Maw and Malzahar. One of you might focus on farming, but it’s always wound up being about utterly destroying the enemy mid. Because mid is a shorter lane you can push as hard as you want and still be closer to your tower than you would be halfway down the other lanes. Since everyone else is utterly beholden to the 1-1-2 lane meta the jungler is the one who wound up showing up to help, but their mid was on the verge of death and the jungler “gank” was merely a 2v2 instead of an actual advantage. Eventually in the handful of such games the enemy team swapped through multiple people mid, all getting destroyed and falling behind until we took their mid tower. Then we had three people able to go freely gank two other solo lanes while the enemy cursed us in allchat.
I’m sure part of the success was because of the common “The Current Meta Cannot Be Challenged” mindset that kept any of them from adapting to the situation.
So how do you adapt? Send the top laner mid and let the mid laner freefarm top?
maxle
6151
It’s not as though 1v2 is some arcane art; you play defensive, farm when it’s safe, poke when it’s safe, and sit back, content in the knowledge that your other two lanes have nothing to fear from ganks, while their other two lanes, well, do. Unless they’re doing something extra crazy like two mid, one top, one bot, one jungle.
Even if the two mid get a farm advantage, it likely won’t be dramatic, and the solo should be able to maintain a level advantage, provided he doesn’t get killed. What lazy was saying about the lane being all about killing the solo? Yeah, because if you don’t kill the solo player you’re not even, you’re disadvantaged; mages care a lot about levels.
Actually, if you want to send two mid versus an AP? Send Taric and Garen. Aaron and I ran into a perfectly competent Anivia top, and there was nothing the poor bird could do but sit at her tower and cry, and eventually even that didn’t keep her from dying. Stun -> Silence makes for an exceptionally unhappy mage. Talon might be a decent choice as well.
Therlun
6152
I am the first to agree that sticking to the meta no matter what is extremely boring and sometimes a weakness.
However, it has become THE meta for a reason. It did so because it has proven to be effective.
While there might be strategies more effective, more versatile or stronger under special circumstances the established mode of play has one advantage over any theorycrafted idea. It was tested and refined over thousands of games by highly competitive players.
Any big change to the way the game is played will have to go through an evaluation, testing and adjustment process that would involve many games and the willingness to experiment. And while many people rant against the stale meta few are willing to go through a few dozen games just trying stuff and experimenting.
I’m itchy to try a few strategies in Dom, but its very difficult, often impossible, to get five people to try something new for more than one game.
Two AP mid is clearly the new Meta. MX showed it off in a game last night and it worked great*.
- for values of great that include us having to eke out a 65 minute win because Jax fed top like a boss and our Morg was inexplicably sort of stupid. I mean, she’d be way over extended and we’ve V-ping for over a minute and suddely the enemy team would appear behind her and the player would say “gosh, I didn’t see that coming!”.
In fairness, the enemy Karth didn’t get too farmed on CS so from that perspective, it worked. But he got farmed anyway because Jax fed like it was going out of style (and liked to share with mid asd well as top when it came to giving out kills) and because Morg would oscillate between conservative and weirdly aggressive, and regardless of the choice it was usually the wrong one. For the last 30 minutes or so there were only two fights we lost decisvely and both were avoidable mistakes. There weren’t a ton of fights - lots of wandering and looking for the other team, and lots of tentative poking. also, Morg always had an open slot and never bought wards.
Anyway, Jax feeding and crazy morg didn’t matter - Graves op and carried. Also, it’s depressing to have 26.5k gold in a game I realized. I really probably should have sold zerkers for another PD or something silly.
Veigar + Graves was devastating for ashe + janna. If veigar lands his stun, it gives graves the time to dash up and land a full 3 shot barrage on you point blank. That harass hurts…real bad. The veigar stun range from the edge of the brush bottom is long enough that the top edge of it can hit you when you try to last hit, even with Ashe’s considerable range.
(This was before the patch, so graves would hit a bit less hard now.)
I might be misinterpreting your comments here, but if you send garen/taric mid, they will be far less effective than they would be from either side lane, as they rely on the brush for zoning.
It’s a 5% drop on each additional bullet hit. On a 150 damage Q that’s 15 less total damage if you hit with all 3. Q still feels like an exceptional harasser to me (that’s with like 4 Graves games played since the patch FWIW. Also I had to 1v2 bot last game because n00b Kennen wanted to 2v1 mid; there was less Q harassment as I was up against a Leona-Graves combo).
Therlun
6157
The second and third bullet do 30% damage each, so if you hit all three you do 160% (96 at lv1, 170 at lv2, 384 at lv5, plus the insane AD scaling). Which is still insane burst IMO.
Therlun
6158
At lv5 his Q does 384 base damage if you hit all three bullets, plus 1.3 bonus AD scaling again (for the three bullets together).
96+scaling at lv 1. He needs to get in close for it, but considering he has a dash and his IMO still extremely strong passive he packs some serious punch.
Even if you only hit with one bullet this skill is extremely powerful.
I erased another reply, but it’s the best Ranged AD skill shot (that isn’t an ult) in the game right now I think. Yes, Cait’s Q has longer range. But it has a windup time and while it hurts more at max range, Graves’ Q hurts more if you can get closer. Also, Graves’ Q doesn’t lose damage based on targets hit; so while the range is smaller you can potentially catch 2-3 targets with multiple bullets if they cluster. Urgot’s green shit + Q is probably equal in terms of overall awesomeness though it’s obviously intended for a different sort of use.
maxle
6160
What they rely on is their opponent(s) knowing that if they get in range of Taric’s stun, they die. Having Taric running around in the middle of the enemy creeps is a reasonably effective method of zoning at most levels of play, although it does decrease the odds that the opponent will get dumb, get stunned, and get killed. It also opens Taric up to harassment, but oh well.
