Half the universe can escape your ult, it’s why you have to force a wasted flas and launch it as close as possible and then cross your fingers.

And as you flash, so do they. :) What’s worse is flashing on a caitlyn, ulting on top of her, and then having her use a low CD move to walk away. Hell, even graves can do it now.

Christ, dude, you realize you’re talking about Annie/Brand/Anivia/Cass or god knows how many other APs right now? AP carries don’t counter each other. If you’re Morgana and you’re trying to counter an AP carry mid by leveling shield, your binding isn’t going to do the damage it needs in order to blow someone up, and you’re just as vulnerable to their flash/ult/ignite. And the cooldown during laning is 120 seconds, no different from Annie.

How the fuck are you landing binds at 1650 ELO anyways? Only people with downs syndrome don’t dodge binds. The best is when a jungler comes to gank mid and he bitches you out for not landing a bind.

The problem isn’t black shield, the problem is that CC is way too good, and RioT doesn’t seem to give a fuck about balancing for it.

And you know who outpushed my mid Morgana with no problem? Janna. Try making bindings mean anything at all when all of the creeps are attacking you because your minions are cleared in seconds.

Scrubs get owned by Morgana. Overrated as fuck.

Morgana shits on AP Janna, as in hard counters her in lane.

Thanks for that incredibly insightful commentary, once again. Do explain to me how Morgana stops Janna from farming creeps repeatedly with Whirlwind, at a rate of speed that beats Morgana’s pool.

Go ahead, I’ll wait, because I’m fairly certain you’ve never actually been in the situation and don’t know what the fuck you’re talking about… again.

Janna creep farming:
Magic Damage: 60 / 85 / 110 / 135 / 160 (+0.75 per ability power)
Additional Damage: 25 / 30 / 40 / 50 / 60 per second charging
= 135 / 175 / 230 / 285 / 340

Morgana creep farming:
Magic Damage Per Second: 25 / 40 / 55 / 70 / 85 (+0.2 per ability power)
= 125, 200, 275, 350, 425

Done reading those numbers? Good, now disregard them because it’s a waste of fucking time. Morgana does damage to creeps that aren’t moving. In a Janna lane, your creeps are being cleared by the wave full, because Whirlwind doesn’t care where the creeps are, it has such a large hitbox that it gets 5-6 of the creeps, every time. Morgana can BARELY keep up, and in the early game she’s actually going to get pushed back to her tower pretty damn quickly, and you’re going to what… bind/pool someone with a shield, when every pool is necessary just to try to keep your waves mid? You realize Morgana is an AWFUL farmer when pushed to her tower, her pool is not a good last-hit mechanism and it’s not going to clear a wave fast enough for good CS at a tower until midgame.

Getting creeps to line up to hit all 6 with a pool is nearly impossible. It happens, but it’s not common, because creeps quickly reorient themselves when the lane pusher is having your melee creeps cleared with alarming speed, because those creeps entered the lane at half health to begin with.

Jungle Soraka! I’ll report back after this ranked game.

Actually Pogo I do. I don’t get you’re hostility? Out of anything anyone could have an issue with me about, my knowledge of the game certainly isn’t one of those things.

Re-read my post. I’m hostile because you don’t bother to expand on shit until it’s already been explained, and that’s the issue. So stop focusing on my hostility and answer the question, or re-read my post and tell me where I went wrong in my EU game last night against Janna (aside from the fact that Shaco couldn’t gank worth a god damn and the rest of my team were feeding scrubs, but somehow we won anyways because eventually Shaco farmed up like 250 AD and started raping turrets at 50 minutes in, his only contribution to the game).

I’m not theorycrafting. So many people talk shit theorycrafting and then get proved wrong, it’s just not even funny anymore. There is no way I could have won my lane yesterday without ganks, and at best I was pushed to my tower and could provide ZERO pressure for other lanes.

That’s the thing.
You know jack shit. All you do is babble things you see in streams or hear from high Elo players. You don’t have any thought of your own as far as LoL is concerned. You knowledge of the game is a card house built from the opinions of better players, your own delusions and outright lies and retcons you invent to keep the whole thing stable.

That’s a little extreme. We’ve all done theorycrafting and thought that one champ should counter another or whatever. The problem is that there are too many factors (other than just champ selection and player skill) that are involved in laning.

McKnight’s a good player with a lot of experience, most people should value some of the things he says, but even people with a lot of experience get it wrong sometimes. I remember when SaintVicious said the EU meta was trash, that two AD carries bot could “shit on” the AD/support meta because in theory those two AD carries should be able to feed on the support (and then on the opposing AD carry). This doesn’t work at his ELO, otherwise it would be tried and true by this point, because that support is warding and CVing the bushes that AD carries need to hide in to avoid creep damage and to do ambush attacks, as well as providing hard/soft CC and shield/healing.

Last night I was watching his stream before going to sleep, and he was jungling Janna (yeah, he did it), and he was surprised that top Pantheon was losing to their top GP, that Pantheon was a “hard counter” to GP. Is this still true when GP knows he’s laning against Pantheon and gets cloth armor + pots? Is it still true when Panth gets ganked almost immediately at level 2 and is permanently behind in gold and experience? Is it still true when GP eats a grapefruit or whatever the fuck he eats to get out of Pantheon’s stun, mitigating all damage from his E? Theoretically, Pantheon should be able to hang back and Q-spam for creep score and shield block GP’s Q, but he couldn’t.

The only solution to my laning Morg against their AP Janna in mid was for ganks, and we all know how well ganks work out against someone with one hard CC, one soft CC (that is actually great harassment against Morg, targeted spell beats Morg’s skillshot root every single time in lane), a pushback ult, and a fairly strong shield. The issue is McKnight’s “Morg shits on Janna” response. It’s just silly and reeks of incomplete theorycrafting, or trolling me, both being equally plausible.

Morgana should farm fine under her tower- her animation is pretty damn good and pool blitzes minion waves down if you use it properly.

Secondly, you shouldn’t be scared of AP Janna. You negate her CC and a good chunk of her damage because, if I remember correctly, her cooldowns are quite high and she shouldn’t be able to hit with anything bar her little sprite thing-y. So you get in her face. Okay, that’s not ideal positioning for Morgana but the choice is to use your superior damage (even through her shield) and your hefty sustain to stay in the lane and bully her out of it. This does, however, mean no pushing and no using pool. You will have to watch for ganks, though.

You can manipulate the minion waves a bit. Walk in front of yours before they arrive, hit Janna to pull their position around and disrupt yours and so on. Disrupt the position of hers so yours pull around. This is not close to a usable solution (more useful in HoN, I guess) but it’s something to think about. Position disruption and zoning are really, really important for Morgana.

If you do decide to turn it into a farm lane, and you can last-hit properly under the tower, then congratulations, you win. If you make your jungler aware that hey, mid’s pushed ALL THE TIME then you definitely win. You win because you’re racking up damage on her ultimate which still, for my money, does silly amounts of damage. A farmed Morgana heading into mid-game is way scarier than a farmed Janna because Black Shield lets their bruiser walk up to your carry and smack them around or protects their carry and she does some nasty burst.

That’s what I’ve got off the top of my head. Between Black Shield and positioning, Janna shouldn’t be doing damage to you. Binding and Pool mean you can damage her for very large amounts and you have sustain and she doesn’t. Pool and auto-attacks should make farming easy as Morg has a better auto-attack.

Oh, I haven’t checked the mana numbers but I seem to remember Janna being really, really mana-hungry so again, careful play should help you here. I can’t say anything else off the top of my head 'cause I haven’t faced that lane and I don’t know exactly how it went for you but I do know Morgana’s capabilities somewhat. AD carries that negate her shield and position properly (punish her if she tries to set up on your side of the wave, for example) beat her, I’m sure there are AP carries that beat her but I’ve got nothing without looking at it a bit. Does that help?

I really hope Therlun doesn’t hate me. Ouch.

In HoN you can run into your minion wave as it walks up and delay them all for a couple seconds as the pathfinding fails. This does absolutely nothing in LoL as they just walk past you.

You seem to have missed what Pogo’s problem was. He didn’t say anything about taking any damage from Janna, she farmed so much faster that he couldn’t farm beyond tower range and would have to tank an entire creep wave to chase her around.

It does not “blitz” minion waves down in the laning phase, especially early on. What it does is it fucks up the health of creeps at your tower, making it likely that one tower shot will take out a creep, while leaving enough health to make your auto-attacks take too long. The solution in early game is to not pool the creeps at all, or pool the casters in a fashion that you only get one or two ticks off while they’re moving to the tower.

Secondly, you shouldn’t be scared of AP Janna. You negate her CC and her damage because, if I remember correctly, her cooldowns are quite high and she shouldn’t be able to hit with anything bar her little sprite thing-y. So you get in her face. Okay, that’s not ideal positioning for Morgana but the choice is to use your superior damage (even through her shield) and your hefty sustain to stay in the lane and bully her out of it. This does, however, mean no pushing and no using pool. You will have to watch for ganks, though.

Not being scared of Janna, or not being able to be killed by Janna, does not matter. Neither champ kills the other. The lane is a farming/pushing match-up and that is it. Other threats are external, from ganks as you said yourself, and if you want to get in Janna face you’re either dead or you’re blowing a flash.

Your “superior damage” is dependent on that skillshot. Without it landing, you don’t have superior damage, you have an ult that does middling damage at level 6 with zero bonus AP, an ult that is part of a kit that keeps you from getting ganked. Guess who else has an ult that counters Morgana’s ult while providing a buffer from ganks? That’s right… JANNA. It even has the same cooldown as Morgana until level 11, where Morg gets 110 seconds instead of 120.

Range of Morg’s leash… 1000 units. Range of Janna’s pushback… 950. 50 units is more than enough for other factors to determine that your leash fails. Indeed, Janna can just start walking WHILE you’re being pushed back and guarantee a leash break with no problem. It happens all the time if you ever played Morgana against a team with support Janna, another reason why I think Morgana is overrated as Janna is a very popular support.

You can manipulate the minion waves a bit. Walk in front of yours before they arrive, hit Janna to pull their position around and disrupt yours and so on. This is not close to a usable solution (more useful in HoN, I guess) but it’s something to think about. Position disruption and zoning are really, really important for Morgana.

Not only is it not a usable solution, it’s a terrible solution as damage from creeps is very relevant to levels 1-6.

That’s what I’ve got off the top of my head. Between Black Shield and positioning, Janna shouldn’t be doing damage to you. Binding and Pool mean you can damage her for very large amounts and you have sustain and she doesn’t. Pool and auto-attacks should make farming easy as Morg has a better auto-attack.

More theoretical mumbo jumbo that forgets that what Janna lacks in auto-attack by a couple of numbers, she has a shield that blocks creep damage.

And for fuck’s sake, BINDING DOES NOT HIT PEOPLE THAT ARE NOT FUCKING RETARDED.

Oh, I haven’t checked the mana numbers but I seem to remember Janna being really, really mana-hungry so again, careful play should help you here.

Morgana is equally mana hungry with very long cooldowns. Her and Janna aren’t much different in that regard.

I don’t need to say this shit again. It’s not a matter of dying to Janna or kill Janna, it’s a matter of not losing your tower and not losing creeps to it. Janna has no problem whirlwinding complete waves and having the range to take out your melee minions and caster minions with auto attacks while being able to retreat to safety. It’s the SAME EXACT ADVANTAGE that Morgana has, only she farms the wave faster at puts your creeps at odd health levels for tower CS.

Therlun, remember a page or two ago when you were all sadmcpanda because no one wanted to play with the US mumble crew? Yeah.

I never meant to hurt you, babe. Let’s hug it out. I’ll put on my robe and wizard cap, and you? You can wear whatever you like.

I would never abandon your mother in her hour of need

Wait, since when is mid AP Janna a viable character?

Just last night I watched Dyrus play solo top soraka against GP. And won. “Support” champs can do all sorts of crazy things and be viable at all levels of ELO.

She’s been able to push really well since time out of mind. That doesn’t make it the best use for her, mind. There is something to be said for shutting down the enemy mid.

OTOH. . . I had a pubby ap teemo mid in a game recently. Faced, of all things, a Nunu. Nunu beat the ever loving shit out of Teemo. Doubled the creep score to the tune of 70 or 80 up, and got 3 or 4 kills. The problem you wind up with is that you’ve now got a farmed Nunu heading through mid to late game. Yeah, his ult is still great if you can land it, snowball is a great skill, and the buff is nice. But he’s still a farmed Nunu. There are many, many characters that are scarier.

I was Graves bot in that game with a Blitz content to let me farm and abuse the stupidity of the enemy team (considerable as it turns out. Poor akali who wasn’t very good). I got farmed too, and we owned bottom. We won top marginally and won the game. Not saying that’s the same case with Janna - there are too many variables in play there (and Pogo mentioned a number in passing). Just pointing out why you wouldn’t necessarily see a Janna midding that often.

Team compositions, laning combinations, and player skill all trump some meta where mid has to be an AP carry. It wasn’t long ago that AD mid was the cool thing to do.

No Pogo you don’t understand mid has to be an ap carry and if you pick janna you have to go full support and can’t build any items or we are going to LOSE!

Not making fun of you Hanacker, but the whole mindset that you have to have a super specific team comp and it is forbidden to experiment or treat this as a game.

The other week we were four man-ing and I was going to have to go bottom with the pub. He picked Vlad and I picked Nasus, which is when Bunny got the vapors and was like “Oh god this is stupid this is stupid we’re going to lose this is stupid we’re going to lose oh god!” But pub Vlad and I destroyed Soraka and Ashe and left them crying behind their tower the entire game. I think it turned out to be one of those 20 min surrenders from the enemy team.

I was just surprised because it seemed like Pogo was presenting it like Janna mid is something you see all the time, and I’ve never actually seen it.