6361

Kog has a passive attack speed bonus on Q, and his extreme range ability lets him clear creeps quickly from a safe distance.

And yeah, attack speed + Wriggles is awesome for taking dragon or farming your own jungle minions.

6362

It’s a 10% increase for the first level, which is a little on the meh side of things; a “later” dragon will probably only see him with 2 points in it (level 8). Don’t get me wrong, any attack speed bonus is better than no attack speed bonus, but it’s not like he’s attacking 40% faster than Caitlyn or something.

W is nice but Caitlyn has range too. I’m just saying I don’t necessarily see Wriggles as a much better fit on Kog than Cait (e.g.). It is a good (well, probably great) fit in both cases, don’t get me wrong.

6363

Farming is god. Copet knows this. Everyone that goes top lane who understands high ELO play knows this.

You counter a bit of AD carry damage, get a little damage yourself, get some life steal that is good enough to scale with the more powerful items you eventually get, and reduce creep damage (non-negligible, a fight during an ally gank situation can have you easily eating 50-200 damage from creeps).

10% attack speed is not negligible on a DPS carry. Especially since it quickly ramps up (I’m assuming people don’t max his goo barf before his Q).

6364

So do I.

You counter a bit of AD carry damage, get a little damage yourself, get some life steal that is good enough to scale with the more powerful items you eventually get, and reduce creep damage (non-negligible, a fight during an ally gank situation can have you easily eating 50-200 damage from creeps).

I am not even sure who you are talking to any more.

10% attack speed is not negligible on a DPS carry. Especially since it quickly ramps up (I’m assuming people don’t max his goo barf before his Q).

Well, it may be true at high ELO play, but I wasn’t aware of anyone maxing Q before W. It only gives 5% attack speed per point (past the 10% at level 1); if people are maxing it first I wonder if the defense shredding is the deciding factor (-15 defenses from 3 points at 5 is considerable). I agree 10% AS isn’t negligible (having said as much), but it’s also not very much.

6365

Errr, I left the thread open and made a second post instead of editing what I forgot to edit in the first place.

So yeah the convo seems a bit weird, I just wanted to discuss what’s nice about Wriggles.

Obviously the favorite build right now is BF Sword ASAP, and if bot lane is pushed back to their own tower, spending only 1.2k gold on a Razor>Wriggles might be a better investment than a Zeal.

6366

That’s reasonable but I wante to point out again I understand what is good about wriggles. ;)

6367

Are you still talking about Kog’Maw? Rushing BF sword and Wriggles is the favorite build for him? I guess that would explain why you might get his Q before maxing everything else.

The problem with Kog’s Q is that the attack speed is nice but not awesome early game and the active is pretty worthless on account of its range, which is less than his attack range before using W. In order to use it you have to be at total commitment range for Kog, which is the worst possible range for an artillery piece because he is so slow and lacking in escape maneuvers that even using flash probably won’t save him if it goes bad. I mean the range of all his other attacks is a screen length for a reason.

Wriggles is awesome for farming but I also don’t know if Kog needs it if you get any magic pen. By level 9 you push ER to kill all the caster minions and leave the melee ones at half health.

6368

You buy Wriggles to trade, not to farm.

6369

So if anyone is interested in Xin, Katarina, or Miss Fortune, Riot is having a 3pack of them for a total of 625 RP. It’s a pretty cool deal since they are 975 each. Offer starts Friday and ends Monday.

6370

I do max barf first most of the time, but I usually play AP Kog. If I were looking for on-hit/Bioarcane Barrage Kog, Q would be more attractive, though probably less attractive than W since I am not going to get all that much time to stand there and pew pew people early.

I learned to play AP Kog primarily from Ghetto Fabulous’ guide, if you need a high-elo stamp of approval as a substitute for independent thought for some reason.

6371

Just stick at learning the different types. I went the opposite way (melee -> ranged) and still am useless at AD carries!

6372

It’s pretty much impossible to talk to either of you about this game.

One of you knows nothing about good builds and build strategies, the other spouts one-off statements with the surety of a drunken Irishman that lives with his grandmother.

6373

Didn’t know lazy was irish.

6374

I guess he wasn’t technically “born” as much as he was grown in a vat, either.

6375

That’s interesting. I’ve always assumed ranged characters are much more intuitive. I started with melee (Warwick). While I did okay with him, I never really felt comfortable figuring out how to farm against ranged characters. Early on in particular, they just sit there and pick you apart; meanwhile, you have no real gap closers (other than your ult) to get back at them, and they can just kite you if you try to run them down. Lifesteal (items or skills) doesn’t really do enough early on to make up for it.

That may in part be Warwick in particular, but I have similar problems with other melee characters (i.e. Rammus, Nassus). I essentially really have to baby them and hide early on, meaning I tend to fall behind in farm, etc.

Rammus in particular - you’d think he could absorb a lot of punishment because he’s “tanky,” but early on, I’ve found he easily gets picked to bits by ranged characters. While he has a gap closer with his ball (and to some degree with his taunt, though it is such a limited range), the cooldowns on them mean they’re not really that big a threat early on.

6376

Melee vs ad range is tough, especially at lower levels because people are much more insistent on harassing you at the expense of their own farm. In those cases, just don’t die and you’ll end up with the same amount of farm. Hopefully you do better without items than them.

If they’re farming as well, they’ll be pushing the lane, and you just need to learn the mechanics of farming under your tower. Your early game farm will suck but by mid game you’ll be able to start pushing THEM out of the creeps and catch up.

6377

Nasus vs ranged AD–well, most ranged AD–is a match made in heaven. For Nasus. Yes, you’ll eat a fair bit of harass. You’re Nasus, you always eat harass, and ranged AD doesn’t have the early game damage of, say, Garen. Hang back near your own creeps, walk forward when it’s time to last hit, then walk back. If they harass you while you’re near or behind your creeps, there’s a very good chance they’ll take more damage from creeps than you will from their attacks. Which is great, since they won’t have inherent lifesteal. Just walk away when they poke, walk back when it’s time to hit a creep. You’ll be relatively low for a while, but you shouldn’t ever really be in danger of dying, and your q–and lifesteal–should ramp up faster than a ranged AD’s damage output (though Graves could be a real problem with that sickening burst. Vayne might be as well, but her range means she’s really going to take a pounding from creeps. If Ez is able to land lots of q’s, that will hurt, but you should be hiding behind creeps anyway, so…), and soon enough you’ll be able to farm with impunity and then tower dive them with impunity (ghost, wither, ult, exhaust, qqqq).

Rammus in lane is generally a bad idea to begin with, as his mana pool is low enough that he’ll be oom all the damn time if he uses his skills at all. So yes, I wouldn’t expect him to do well vs ranged.

In my view melee is a much better idea solo queue than ranged, as if you get rolling with ye olde tanky deeps you can initiate, tank, and wtfpwn enemies. Whereas if you get rolling as ranged you can wtfpwn enemies provided your team keeps them from focusing you.

6378

What? I was asking if doing a typical AD build on Kog was the FOTM in perfectly good faith, since I don’t like to spend the hours required to watch streams and replays of games online. I’m sorry that you get so pissed off by someone not playing the way you do and still doing ok. I even offer reasoning for doing/not doing things and instead of taking it at face value you reply “It is impossible to talk to you and you know nothing about good build strategies”?

6379

mx - you say that, but Teemo hurts so much, and he can practically sit past your creeps and harass you. :(

And then your jungler comes and he dies.

6380

Kog’maw with wriggles is good because he already has a skill that does percentage damage to creeps based on max health, so he does a lot to neutrals.

I don’t think last whisper is good on caitlin. If you get i-edge + phantom dancer + black cleaver you will take down squishies faster than if you had gone last whisper, plus you will probably do about the same damage to tanks considering the attack speed boost and superior damage of cleaver.

For early game I do boots + 3 pots. I get anywhere from 2 to 3 doran’s blades, then i-edge -> phantom dancer. Just stay in the back in fights, or once CDs are blown go after the squishies.

I never do bloodthirster on her, really. With 2 or 3 dorans blades and an i-edge + phantom dancer, you have plenty of health steal and sustain. With range like caitlin’s, max damage auto-attack is better, and bloodthirster is not an item you get to max your damage. It is to have sustain and beat melee people in trades, and also use your skill nukes (which are only helpful early game, I think).