6381

Teemo isn’t ranged AD, as far as I’m concerned. But sure, he hurts, and you probably can’t heal through that harass.

6382

His blind and ghost makes fighting him super hard as most top lane ADs.

6383

Why should I spend my time writing long posts explaining things, only to be told I know nothing or argued with stupidly for no real reason only that I’m McKnight and it’s fun to argue with/troll him. If you don’t know enough to realize what I’m talking about in these small posts then ask, at least then I’ll know my opinion is wanted rather then scoffed at.

In the case of wriggles, everyone seemed to be talking about how it helps you farm and while it was amusing watching you and peacedog talk past each other for a while I thought I’d add the main reason you get Wriggles. To enable you to trade with the enemy in lane and come off better, thanks to the armor and the additional lifesteal. Dragon control is also a factor to be honest, but that had already been mentioned in some degree and I thought it was obvious enough. Once you have a Wriggles you can straight up trade with the opposing AD in lane, come off better (in 90% of cases) and then also heal back up afterwards. It really is an amazing item and goes great when paired with armor runes aswell. It also helps you win match-ups you otherwise wouldn’t (it’s practically required as Vayne vs. Cait) and helps you stay in the lane when you are behind.

Morgana vs Janna: Janna is a champion who’s prime strength is CC, Morgana is a champion who’s unqiue feature is a shield that prevents CC. Her shield blocks every single one of Janna’s spells (including her Ultimate). The very worst thing that can happen for the Morg in a Janna vs Morg lane is that they both go even and it becomes a farm lane. In which case the team with Morg is infinitely better off because a farmed Morgana is very scary whereas the team with Janna is left with a champion that, while farmed, is unable to use any of her spells effectively. Hence the phrase “Morgana counters/shits on Janna”.

Anything else you’d like explained more clearly Pogo?

Oh and btw, I don’t live with my grandmother. One’s dying and one’s in a home with Alzheimers. But I’m sure your joke was funny for someone.

6384

Yeap, you didn’t read my post about Morg vs. Janna at all. You say Morgana “shits on” Janna, Therlun disses you, then you ignore my post where I already explained that it’s a lane where nobody dies for several reasons I won’t explain yet again, you just follow up with a troll about my skill with Morgana.

And your analysis is still way off because you’re not even bothering to think about it. Morg doesn’t do damage without pool, Janna does not let herself get stunned for a pool, and if you do use the pool to waste on her decent damage shield, you no longer have it to push your lane back against the whirlwind. Hence why Therlun’s post about you was so damn accurate.

You want respect for posts but don’t give it at all. Fuck off.

And you said a long time ago you talk quietly at night due to your grandmother. My bad that you were lying.

6385

I live with my parents at the moment, so I’ll give you a break since that could have been easy to confuse. I’m not looking for respect, I couldn’t really care less. I’m just not bothering to waste my time anymore unless people want me to.

The aim of a lane is not always to kill the other person. I don’t know why that’s a hard concept to grasp?

6386

Anyone want to come play World of Tanks? ;)

6387

My good lord, if the aim of the lane is not to kill the other person, and my argument was about how the match-up comes down to pushing the lane, something that Janna actually wins in doing, then how the FUCK are you wondering why you’re treated the way you are sometimes? I’m flabbergasted that you still don’t understand what this was all about in the first place.

6388

Seriously, guys. Just cyber. Lazy and I did and it did wonders for our ability to be civil to each other.

6389

You can’t push against a Morgana, just like you can’t push against an AP Janna or a Sion or an Anivia or a couple of other champions. These lanes become farm lanes and the winner is the person who comes out of it better mid/late game (ignoring junglers for a moment to make things a bit simpler). Which was the point I was attempting to make, mid/late game Morgana makes a Janna’s life hell while also being far more useful to her team. There is a reason Janna was phased out of mid lane at a competitive level (the last game I even saw a Janna, she was counter-picked and crushed by a Morgana as expected), she simply isn’t as useful late game as several other AP’s and the sole reason she was run was to enable a team to utilize Janna’s amazing CC when she wasn’t really a viable support pick because healing was simply to strong. The addition of a Black Shield on the opposing team makes her already rocky late-game even worse as it removes the prime reason you would have her in the first place.

And fyi, I wasn’t trying to “troll” your Morgana play. I was simply making an observation based on what you had already espoused in the thread. Not everyone can be perfect with everything mate, I sure as hell amn’t :)

6390

So you imagined what the argument was in your head, and then slighted me for being wrong about it when it wasn’t even what I was talking about, and now you’re basically ending up agreeing with me and not even knowing it.

Yeap, that’s you.

6391

Actually, you can push against Morg early game. That is the reason that Casseopeia is the only counter to her.

6392

OTOH, if you are in a lane partnered with a shaco who wants to roam, facing a Teemo and Soraka who know what they are doing, you’ll never actually get to wriggles before the kill the tower (note: yes, I was begging for help. No jungler). You certainly won’t be able to go back for red-razor without lane relief (there was none, alas) or they’ll just take the tower quicker. For Pogo’s spreadsheet purposes, I was maxing W before Q. Shaco seemed shocked that I was “failing”. “Just max W and use your range”.

Dear Shaco, you bumbling fucking idiot:

As you might have noticed, I Started with a Doran’s Blade (thought about long sword though), and had 69 attack damage owing to my runes/masteries. That’s quite a bit. I did in fact max W and use it at every opportunity. Soraka’s StarANNIHILATIONfall outranges me even with W active (at least for the first few points). So she can zone me or else I have to take a shit load of damage trying to last hit/attack her. Oh, she can heal the not irrelevant damage I pile on her. Lacking wriggles, I cannot meaningfully sustain at this point.

  1. With just a dorans - and I don’t have any other items because you left and wouldn’t return and I was stuck here - it is physically impossible to clear a creep wave off the tower without Teemo and Soraka punching the tower a bunch of times. Note for Pogo spreadsheet: skill order was WQWEW, r>w>q>e (natch).

  2. I don’t have boots because as soon as the tower was down I had to go relieve mid while you were fucking masterbating with fake guardsmanbob in the enemy jungle.

  3. You’ll notice I had the only positive score in our game. I noticed that too!

Alas, never got past wriggles + Malady. We surrendered at 20. I only died once and never at tower. Teemo and Soraka were content to take the lane victory. Did ok farming; the real problem was the inability to push off the tower.

I don’t think last whisper is good on caitlin. If you get i-edge + phantom dancer + black cleaver you will take down squishies faster than if you had gone last whisper, plus you will probably do about the same damage to tanks considering the attack speed boost and superior damage of cleaver.

I think Therlun is right that it tends to be situational. But LW still helps with Q and R where as Black Clever’s armor pen does not. That said, I was mostly playing Caitlyn before Graves appeared, I found myself getting LW more often than not. Yes, killing squishes is good. I just seemed to frequently find myself in games where the enemy team seemed extra tanky. It was raining jungle lee sins (hallelujah). I was frequently in a position where hitting an enemy squishy wasn’t possible. These people usually had 120+ armor (by the time I was done with IE + PD anyway. Though sometimes I stop at Zeal and work on something else). LW seemed like the superior choice, and was frequently a tide turner.

I never cared for getting BT first, personally. I see it on Graves and Caitlins frequently.

6393

I’m not sure what you mean when you say you “laned” with Shaco but that he also roamed. Did he switch back and forth between the two?

I see several problems with this setup. Most of them are obviously not your fault. I would suggest that you, personally, make one change, though.

  1. Shaco and Kog’maw is a dumb lane combo. I harp on this a lot, because I believe in it: your lanes should not have two people who need farm in the same lane. Either one person gets farmed and the other person doesn’t, making the guy who drew the short straw useless later, or you both get middling farm and get ruined later by the other team, who had a farmed up carry from the laning phase. (Door #3: neither of you gets farmed because you’re fucking up each other’s last hits.)

  2. I don’t like to take Doran’s Blade to the lane when I don’t have sustain. It’s one thing to be a carry starting with Doran’s blade when you have Taric or Soraka to heal you. It’s another to be eating a lot of harass when trying to farm when your lane partner is Shaco of all people. This is particularly problematic, as you saw, when the other team does have that setup. This is the part I’d suggest you rethink.

  3. No one should ever be constantly in and out of a 2v2 lane. If you want to roam, fine, roam. By being there some of the time, you’re not only forcing someone to 1v2 the lane, which sucks – and is a nightmare scenario for someone like Kog especially – you’re forcing them to do it without the level and gold advantage you’d have from soloing. This is selfish play of the worst order. It is, of course, seen often when playing with strangers. “im jungling at 3” FUCK YOU NO YOU AREN’T.

  4. Want to roam? Don’t be fucking Shaco. This is among the most infuriating parts of what you described. Roaming enjoyed some popularity in high-Elo play for a while, I’m not sure if it still does. For it to be effective, you need someone who is useful despite being several levels behind and having very little money. That’s why the prime candidates for it were Taric and Alistar. Taric’s stun doesn’t increase in duration when you level it, and Alistar can move people just far with level 1 Headbutt as he can with maxed Headbutt. (Not sure offhand whether his knockup duration scales with levels.)

Oh, one more thing – if you are stuck in that situation and you’re getting pushed against yr tower nonstop, you might want to max barf instead of W even if going on hit, since it’s AOE and can help you push back the onslaught.

6394

Sort of. He leveled to 2 - about 2.5 really and took off to roam. He showed back up once for about 30 seconds and left again (not a proper gank).

Obviously, that completely screws me. Understand there was no jungler on our team (uhhhhh. . . Shyvana and someone else were top but I can’t recall who. Gangplank, I think).

I see several problems with this setup. Most of them are obviously not your fault. I would suggest that you, personally, make one change, though.

You and me both.

  1. Shaco and Kog’maw is a dumb lane combo. I harp on this a lot, because I believe in it: your lanes should not have two people who need farm in the same lane. Either one person gets farmed and the other person doesn’t, making the guy who drew the short straw useless later, or you both get middling farm and get ruined later by the other team, who had a farmed up carry from the laning phase. (Door #3: neither of you gets farmed because you’re fucking up each other’s last hits.)

Out of my control. He late switched to shaco in champ select and Syvana and whoever insisted on laning together top. It was going to be another farm dependant character regardless (Ryze went mid. Oh, he fed like a boss).

  1. I don’t like to take Doran’s Blade to the lane when I don’t have sustain. It’s one thing to be a carry starting with Doran’s blade when you have Taric or Soraka to heal you. It’s another to be eating a lot of harass when trying to farm when your lane partner is Shaco of all people. This is particularly problematic, as you saw, when the other team does have that setup. This is the part I’d suggest you rethink.

Shaco didn’t announce he was going to roam mind you. He said, as the creep waves approached the lane, “I’m going to level and then roam”. If I had known this earlier, I might have chosen something else. That said, regrowth probably isn’t an improvement based on how the enemy was playing. I’m not going to clear creep waves more quickly with it. I might be able to get some more creep killing in away from the tower, granted, but I’m dubious as to how much. If I get stouter (there’s a null magic argument obviously) great, but if it comes down to keeping creep waves off the tower I’m screwed. Note that I did not die in lane. But Soraka harass was a problem.

  1. No one should ever be constantly in and out of a 2v2 lane. If you want to roam, fine, roam. By being there some of the time, you’re not only forcing someone to 1v2 the lane, which sucks – and is a nightmare scenario for someone like Kog especially – you’re forcing them to do it without the level and gold advantage you’d have from soloing. This is selfish play of the worst order. It is, of course, seen often when playing with strangers. “im jungling at 3” FUCK YOU NO YOU AREN’T.

Tell me something I don’t know.

  1. Want to roam? Don’t be fucking Shaco. This is among the most infuriating parts of what you described. Roaming enjoyed some popularity in high-Elo play for a while, I’m not sure if it still does. For it to be effective, you need someone who is useful despite being several levels behind and having very little money. That’s why the prime candidates for it were Taric and Alistar. Taric’s stun doesn’t increase in duration when you level it, and Alistar can move people just far with level 1 Headbutt as he can with maxed Headbutt. (Not sure offhand whether his knockup duration scales with levels.)

I expect Shaco to go gank. Frequently. He is good at this. But that’s different than roaming.

Oh, one more thing – if you are stuck in that situation and you’re getting pushed against yr tower nonstop, you might want to max barf instead of W even if going on hit, since it’s AOE and can help you push back the onslaught.

I could start amp tome (since it’s part of malady) and do this, but of course the biggest problem is that I didn’t know I was going to have to do this. That said, level 3 E costs 100 mana to cast. The damage is 174 per creep (with Amp Tome). That’s probably just under a third of a melee creeps health at level 5, and about half of a caster minion’s creep. This speeds up taking a wave, sure, but I’m going to be out of mana rather quickly. And I’m a lot less useful in fights this way. This slows me losing the tower but probably not by that much (of course, if someone had come and ganked bottom that would be different and slowing the process matters a lot, but nobody was coming. Nothing to do be done about that. If only I could detect these games in advance. Revive Sivir every time).

Note that 30 seconds of proper relief could change things. But I didn’t get that.

6395

Oh, yeah, I’m not criticizing you. These are things I think are important, and I’m mentioning them in the thread because I think they’re valuable to new players, and so that other players can tell me I’m dumb.

You expect Shaco to go gank frequently because he should be in the fucking jungle. I don’t understand lane Shaco at all. No presence to speak of, and so many better champions for it. I have seen a mid Shaco that did pretty well, though.

6396

While I agree with this, I had the pleasure of laning (as Graves) with a very good player who went AP Shaco recently. Trolololololo. Of course it’s a pubstomp kind of thing; AP Shaco’s effectiveness drops off dramatically if people are paying the littlest bit of attention.

This happened, I am not kidding, about 6 times:

  1. Shaco dropped 3+ boxen in a lane bush.

  2. Teemo or Alistair waked close to boxen and took a shit load of damage.

  3. Graves - ever the opportunist - was waiting for this. Graves dashed in and pressed Q.

  4. Enemy dies.

lol.

6397

I agree with chequers, Teemo can be pretty slippery and his mushrooms give him a ward-free early warning on ganks. Actually, I agree with Chequers on pretty much everything, all the time. He is the one beacon of knowledge in this otherwise terrible thread.

6398

There is really nothing at all you can do in a situation like that, but it also highlights why I max Kog’s E barf first. It does good damage as it levels up, hits an infinite number of targets without losing damage, and it is long range enough that you can stand out of range of a tower and vomit onto someone hiding BEHIND it. If someone is pushing you stand on the opposite side of all the creeps from them and out of their range and barf to both harass and kill creeps at the same time. In contrast Kog’s poor Q is completely worthless early game because he will die instantly if he is in range, and the attack speed by itself sucks because you aren’t supposed to be standing still autoattacking things at the start.

Shaco is one of those characters where you don’t like having him on your team because half the time he is really bad, but you don’t like having him on the enemy team because the other half of the time he is really good. I’ve seen lane Shacos do good because they manage to get some early kills for them and their lane partner and both start snowballing really hard. I’ve also seen jungle Shacos failgank me even when I was Kog, the easiest character to gank in the entire game.

6399

The Trinity Force podcast is actually enjoyable. The last episode is on Jungling and Support.

6400

So, I was playing Caitlyn, and someone else on the team took Heimerdinger and called mid.

When the game started, I went mid, and then the Heimerdinger guy went mid as well, reminding me he’d “called” mid.

I told him I felt like Heimerdinger was wasting half his passive running solo, and that pushing me off mid hurt Cait more than Heimer gained from being solo mid. But he insisted, saying he “liked” solo mid. I asked him if he liked solo mid why did he play a support character that was going to be granting extra health regen to no one, and not someone that could really benefit from the extra XP and gold.

But then the game started, I went top, we won, it was fine, but I feel like I was basically in the right there.

Yes? No? Crazy?